I expect most of you to disagree. I want to see you prove me wrong.
Conflict: Parenting is Needless.
Reasoning: People who live in society exist to make society better by playing their part in it. The goal of society is to benefit all members of it. Parenting just allows people to individualize their offspring, and make them into beings that work to serve themselves, rather than the society they exist to serve.
Everyone is a part of the society we live in, thus we should all work to make society the best it can be for everyone else, rather than selfishly promote our own indulgences. It is the goal of said society to tell the people what will help them help the whole without feeling any negative feelings towards doing so, to keep them from doing anything they don't need to do or shouldn't do, from the perspective of the whole. Society should give children ideals and teach them what they need to know, not parents who want their children to be better than the other children.
Resolve: Children should not be raised in families.
Debate.
(09-02-2008 12:14 AM)Static Wrote: [ -> ]I expect most of you to disagree. I want to see you prove me wrong.
Ha, rather expectantly, I agree, but I'll challenge you anyway.
Conflict: Parenting is Needless.
^Flawed. Parenting is needed in any state, be it mere nurturing, or mothering. You define parenting as the act of having parents, or the individual acts they use on the children they have. Rather, parenting is simply teaching, nurturing and molding someone into something you want them to be. It's like a mother giving her child space-books, in hopes he'd become an astronaut. Parenting's needed for any child to be grown properly, as they can't independently raise themselves. Parenting's an introduction to the world, saying parenting's not needed, and the way you stated it, means any maternal act should be abolished, is inane.
Reasoning: People who live in society exist to make society better by playing their part in it. The goal of society is to benefit all members of it. Parenting just allows people to individualize their offspring, and make them into beings that work to serve themselves, rather than the society they exist to serve.
Society shouldn't be something people culminate together to forge. It promotes peace, a treaty that says everyone lays their bricks down in order to build a house, metaphorically speaking. Houses are made to be independently lived, which apposing to them being made through togetherness. (I lacked a better word.. O.O.) We cannot mold, nor contribute to society to make it better, for those to independently enjoy. It takes about 15 people to build a house, but only 1 to live it/in it. Playing our part only leads to corruption, which cannot be avoided, as it is human nature. The goal of government is to benefit all those it governs, apposed to society. The rebuild of society isn't plausible, no matter what principle is imposed. I support individualism, that everyone should act for themselves, as apposed to acting for others rising. If we all act for ourselves, we'd benefit slightly more then we are now. However, this is on a non-corrupt, non animal level. =/.
Everyone is a part of the society we live in, thus we should all work to make society the best it can be for everyone else, rather than selfishly promote our own indulgences. It is the goal of said society to tell the people what will help them help the whole without feeling any negative feelings towards doing so, to keep them from doing anything they don't need to do or shouldn't do, from the perspective of the whole. Society should give children ideals and teach them what they need to know, not parents who want their children to be better than the other children.
Society is merely defined as were you happen to live, and how it's governed. Using it as an umbrella term as you are is pretty annoying. =/. Although I completely agree with the acts promoting everyone else, as apposed to our own, you cannot deny that it would lead to corruption and people using it to satisfy their own personal indulgences, whilst the rest attribute towards it, unknowingly. Yeah, kind of like Christianity. =P. Besides, parents teaching their children to better other children can be seen as a good thing, as it dignifies children possibly doing better in whatever fields the parents choose. It also leads to children being mere robotic toys in the eyes of the parents, but, your theory isn't pretty far away from that, anyway. We can educate the next generation, nurture it to the level of plausible thinking being mandatory, however, you cannot take away the maternal rights parents seem to feel/have. Children should be raised in families, not all culminated in some sort of educating facility. Children should just be taken from those families at proper intervals in order to educate them better. Parental influence in unavoidable, but fixable. =/. At-least, it has done so for myself.
Resolve: Children should not be raised in families.
My resolve: Your resolve can be done, but the revolt as a result would lead to the fabric of society being torn. Mothers want their children for the most part, dude. =/.
Debate.
Answered differently.
Also, Note:
I countered you in a way I wouldn't usually do/support, but honestly, we haven't debated for so long, anyway. Don't tear me to shreds for using moral issues, either.
. My response may fail, but I felt like throwing my two cents in to prove you wrong.
I believe that one should be individualised in order to to give rise to social competition. Thus, society can advance easily that way.
My stand-Parenting should be allowed for the sake of social evolution.
Incase someone missed, which I don't think either of you did, I'm anti-individualist.
@ Raviel: We will not evolve to our fullest potential until we realize that it is these things that do not matter. Becoming more technologically advanced doesn't help our race, it helps individuals become better, different. Once we realize we are all the same, we should feel compelled to live lives that portray this.
@ 2sick4u: Well said, Comrade.
By parenting, I meant by mother and father. I am implying that people whose job it is to raise children should do it, all the children live together, and the teachers define what is absolute, not that kids should be left on their own. They should be raised by and with society and its ethics, no the ethics of individuals.
If we can currently make people enjoy the servitude of modern society, we can certainly make them enjoy the more peaceful, more together, less individualized Utopian society that is the goal of equality. In such a society, we wouldn't need a large government or police force, it would be rare for people to act out of line, because they will have been programmed to act in line. We can program human nature out of people, make them what we want them to, because we are just machines, just complex ones, ones programmed by our fate rather than our society.
What parents teach children today is how to live in the world we live in today. Change the way we live in our world, and we need to change how the next generation is prepared to keep it going. The "Robotic Toys" is essentially what I am going for. The goal is to remove what is human from them, and force them to function on the level as equals with perception enough to see that what they have been taught is righteous truth, worth dying for, and the reason they exist is to keep the social base in existence, as a piece of the whole doing its part to support the rest.
It is a very Theocratic idea, and I in fact would not be much opposed to religions if they actually made sense. The idea of creating a society where everyone shares the same beliefs is absolutely fantastic, and it is almost always internally successful until a different way of thinking enters the area.
Comment on your resolve: Modern society is a blasphemy to human intelligence. If we have to alter the fabric of said society to make a model that more properly represents truthful human realization, then so be it.
And objective truth exists, just so you know. We perceive, therefore we are. We perceive something other than nothing, therefore something else must exist, or we wouldn't know we were seeing anything different. We see human beings, they act similarly to the way we do, they are essentially the same thing, just different. The goal is to make them act together, as if they all matter, and if similarity has to be promoted to remove the idea of bettering anything other than the whole, then so be it.
Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
(09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
He thinks people
should exist only to serve the state.
(09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
Letting them have freedom of thought only allows them to put each other down.
Why allow it at all, why let them be people if we can make them better?
As I said before, we need to ship all the kids 10 and below to a group home on Mars.
HORUS [NWO Wrote:' pid='1075587' dateline='1220616530']
(09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
He thinks people should exist only to serve the state.
Which is where he makes his mistake; in actually, the state should exist only to serve the people.
(09-05-2008 11:34 PM)Crab Helmet Wrote: [ -> ]HORUS [NWO Wrote:' pid='1075587' dateline='1220616530']
(09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
He thinks people should exist only to serve the state.
Which is where he makes his mistake; in actually, the state should exist only to serve the people.
Humanity vs Peace.
Its a dispute of perception. I think people should have a common purpose to live together, you think people should have the will to choose their own purpose.
Its a lot easier to tell people what to believe and do, thus I will stand by that idea. You will disagree.
If we can have an argument, by all means go right ahead and initiate, but right now I don't think this will be anything more than an argument of perception, rather, pointless.
kids are too open for corruption. that is why a true parent is necessary. a true parent is one who will care for the child, and do anything to make sure that they grow to be true parents. it is a never ending cycle. but there are those who will not be true parents, and that, I believe, is what you are talking about. But that is why we have child services.
(09-06-2008 04:12 PM)saintslashgeorge666 Wrote: [ -> ]kids are too open for corruption. that is why a true parent is necessary. a true parent is one who will care for the child, and do anything to make sure that they grow to be true parents. it is a never ending cycle. but there are those who will not be true parents, and that, I believe, is what you are talking about. But that is why we have child services.
Not at all. I will put it in the most negative light I can so you can get what I am saying.
I am saying that people are raised by their government and told how to live their lives.
Make them happy with their servitude, and live to help each other, rather than to better themselves.
Don't fret precious I'm here, step away from the window
Go back to sleep
Lay your head down child
I won't let the boogeyman come
Counting bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind to the rabble
Pay no mind to the rabble
Head down, go to sleep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind what other voices say
They don't care about you, like I do, like I do
Safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils,
See, they don't give a f*** about you, like I do.
Just stay with me, safe and ignorant,
Go back to sleep
Go back to sleep
Lay your head down child
I won't let the boogeyman come
Count the bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Pay no mind to the rabble
Pay no mind to the rabble
Head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and all your demons
I'll be the one to protect you from
A will to survive and a voice of reason
I'll be the one to protect you from
Your enemies and your choices son
They're one in the same
I must isolate you
Isolate and save you from yourself
Swayin to the rhythm of the new world order and
Count the bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
The boogeymen are coming
The boogeymen are coming
Keep your head down, go to sleep, to the rhythm of a war drums
Stay with me
Safe and ignorant
Just stay with me
Hold you and protect you from the other ones
The evil ones
Don't love you son,
Go back to sleep
Tyrancy from a tyrants point of view.
Or dictatorship from a dictator's point of view.
It's not injustice, because the people don't know they are being done wrong.
So, in reality, are they really being done wrong if they don't think they are?
No.
Static is right on this one.
(09-05-2008 04:55 PM)Static Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
Letting them have freedom of thought only allows them to put each other down.
Why allow it at all, why let them be people if we can make them better?
Because we can't, humans are imperfect in every way in every prospect...
When you have everyone raised up in the same pattern doing everything the same way every time everyday it only creates monotony. People should be grown up into individuals. Parents should teach them to be something, special. When humans grow as raised to help the society the society will be strong in my opinion =\ you simply can't expect people to be brainwashed into doing anything just to help the society, yes people should help the society but not to the extent of losing everything they can become, that's a selfish sacrifice in my opinion =P
Also Static, most people, no matter how much they're taught grow out to be selfish. Also people who are tarnished from love tend to grow into emo's, selfish people who will not help the society at all. People are grown in two categories, good and bad... you just have to live with it =\ Think of it this way, "You can't win them all". Besides wiping out "things" that are imperfect won't necessarily help make a thing perfect, everything is imperfect in a certain way from a certain point of view. You have one, other people have one, you can't just force your point of view to others...
(09-07-2008 09:02 AM)Cyber Altair Wrote: [ -> ] (09-05-2008 04:55 PM)Static Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
Letting them have freedom of thought only allows them to put each other down.
Why allow it at all, why let them be people if we can make them better?
Because we can't, humans are imperfect in every way in every prospect...
When you have everyone raised up in the same pattern doing everything the same way every time everyday it only creates monotony. People should be grown up into individuals. Parents should teach them to be something, special. When humans grow as raised to help the society the society will be strong in my opinion =\ you simply can't expect people to be brainwashed into doing anything just to help the society, yes people should help the society but not to the extent of losing everything they can become, that's a selfish sacrifice in my opinion =P
Also Static, most people, no matter how much they're taught grow out to be selfish. Also people who are tarnished from love tend to grow into emo's, selfish people who will not help the society at all. People are grown in two categories, good and bad... you just have to live with it =\ Think of it this way, "You can't win them all". Besides wiping out "things" that are imperfect won't necessarily help make a thing perfect, everything is imperfect in a certain way from a certain point of view. You have one, other people have one, you can't just force your point of view to others...
We should raise children the way the Government sees fit to suit our society. All the people will be raised the same way, or "reformed" for the new society at birth. Basically building a brand new society without harming anybody.
These new people will grow up and will raise their children the same way, and we will have a "utopian society" pretty much. Everyone would be suitible for society.
And whos to say that nobody could come through everynow and then and "touch up" the current Utopian society, by "cleaning up" any problems?
Parenting shall stay without it the world would fall and go into chaos/turmoil. Parenting is needed so kids will take the right path without we are lost.
(09-07-2008 12:48 PM)*.Burn It Down.* Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2008 09:02 AM)Cyber Altair Wrote: [ -> ] (09-05-2008 04:55 PM)Static Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
Letting them have freedom of thought only allows them to put each other down.
Why allow it at all, why let them be people if we can make them better?
Because we can't, humans are imperfect in every way in every prospect...
When you have everyone raised up in the same pattern doing everything the same way every time everyday it only creates monotony. People should be grown up into individuals. Parents should teach them to be something, special. When humans grow as raised to help the society the society will be strong in my opinion =\ you simply can't expect people to be brainwashed into doing anything just to help the society, yes people should help the society but not to the extent of losing everything they can become, that's a selfish sacrifice in my opinion =P
Also Static, most people, no matter how much they're taught grow out to be selfish. Also people who are tarnished from love tend to grow into emo's, selfish people who will not help the society at all. People are grown in two categories, good and bad... you just have to live with it =\ Think of it this way, "You can't win them all". Besides wiping out "things" that are imperfect won't necessarily help make a thing perfect, everything is imperfect in a certain way from a certain point of view. You have one, other people have one, you can't just force your point of view to others...
These new people will grow up and will raise their children the same way, and we will have a "utopian society" pretty much. Everyone would be suitible for society.
And whos to say that nobody could come through everynow and then and "touch up" the current Utopian society, by "cleaning up" any problems?
Thing is you can't give government the ultimate power, i for one might not trust the government for everything... Governments are made up of human beings who generally f*** up every once in a while. Even dictatorship wouldn't solve the problems, two much power in one (two =P) hands generally become too much.
A possible way would be increasing awareness, giving parents courses and making sure the children are brought up well, but i still believe that the raising of everyone in the same way is a huge mistake...
People are unique which is why were here today, if everyone thought the same would we have fire? the wheel? electricity? internet? civilization? i find that hard to believe =\
(09-07-2008 02:01 PM)Cyber Altair Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2008 12:48 PM)*.Burn It Down.* Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2008 09:02 AM)Cyber Altair Wrote: [ -> ] (09-05-2008 04:55 PM)Static Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
Letting them have freedom of thought only allows them to put each other down.
Why allow it at all, why let them be people if we can make them better?
Because we can't, humans are imperfect in every way in every prospect...
When you have everyone raised up in the same pattern doing everything the same way every time everyday it only creates monotony. People should be grown up into individuals. Parents should teach them to be something, special. When humans grow as raised to help the society the society will be strong in my opinion =\ you simply can't expect people to be brainwashed into doing anything just to help the society, yes people should help the society but not to the extent of losing everything they can become, that's a selfish sacrifice in my opinion =P
Also Static, most people, no matter how much they're taught grow out to be selfish. Also people who are tarnished from love tend to grow into emo's, selfish people who will not help the society at all. People are grown in two categories, good and bad... you just have to live with it =\ Think of it this way, "You can't win them all". Besides wiping out "things" that are imperfect won't necessarily help make a thing perfect, everything is imperfect in a certain way from a certain point of view. You have one, other people have one, you can't just force your point of view to others...
These new people will grow up and will raise their children the same way, and we will have a "utopian society" pretty much. Everyone would be suitible for society.
And whos to say that nobody could come through everynow and then and "touch up" the current Utopian society, by "cleaning up" any problems?
Thing is you can't give government the ultimate power, i for one might not trust the government for everything... Governments are made up of human beings who generally f*** up every once in a while. Even dictatorship wouldn't solve the problems, two much power in one (two =P) hands generally become too much.
A possible way would be increasing awareness, giving parents courses and making sure the children are brought up well, but i still believe that the raising of everyone in the same way is a huge mistake...
People are unique which is why were here today, if everyone thought the same would we have fire? the wheel? electricity? internet? civilization? i find that hard to believe =\
Why couldn't the government have all the power? If done correctly, that would be the best scenario.
However, Dictatorship and Tyrancy are not the ways I would approach it.
I would have the government's power limited to the point where people still have their basic liberties.
But honestly, I support our current government the most. I don't think it should be the government's job to pacify a pathetic community.
(09-07-2008 03:10 PM)*.Burn It Down.* Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2008 02:01 PM)Cyber Altair Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2008 12:48 PM)*.Burn It Down.* Wrote: [ -> ] (09-07-2008 09:02 AM)Cyber Altair Wrote: [ -> ] (09-05-2008 04:55 PM)Static Wrote: [ -> ] (09-04-2008 11:56 PM)PikaPerson01 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol @ thinking people exist only to serve the state. Seriously, they don't.
Letting them have freedom of thought only allows them to put each other down.
Why allow it at all, why let them be people if we can make them better?
Because we can't, humans are imperfect in every way in every prospect...
When you have everyone raised up in the same pattern doing everything the same way every time everyday it only creates monotony. People should be grown up into individuals. Parents should teach them to be something, special. When humans grow as raised to help the society the society will be strong in my opinion =\ you simply can't expect people to be brainwashed into doing anything just to help the society, yes people should help the society but not to the extent of losing everything they can become, that's a selfish sacrifice in my opinion =P
Also Static, most people, no matter how much they're taught grow out to be selfish. Also people who are tarnished from love tend to grow into emo's, selfish people who will not help the society at all. People are grown in two categories, good and bad... you just have to live with it =\ Think of it this way, "You can't win them all". Besides wiping out "things" that are imperfect won't necessarily help make a thing perfect, everything is imperfect in a certain way from a certain point of view. You have one, other people have one, you can't just force your point of view to others...
These new people will grow up and will raise their children the same way, and we will have a "utopian society" pretty much. Everyone would be suitible for society.
And whos to say that nobody could come through everynow and then and "touch up" the current Utopian society, by "cleaning up" any problems?
Thing is you can't give government the ultimate power, i for one might not trust the government for everything... Governments are made up of human beings who generally f*** up every once in a while. Even dictatorship wouldn't solve the problems, two much power in one (two =P) hands generally become too much.
A possible way would be increasing awareness, giving parents courses and making sure the children are brought up well, but i still believe that the raising of everyone in the same way is a huge mistake...
People are unique which is why were here today, if everyone thought the same would we have fire? the wheel? electricity? internet? civilization? i find that hard to believe =\
Why couldn't the government have all the power? If done correctly, that would be the best scenario.
However, Dictatorship and Tyrancy are not the ways I would approach it.
I would have the government's power limited to the point where people still have their basic liberties.
But honestly, I support our current government the most. I don't think it should be the government's job to pacify a pathetic community.
Even if the people had the liberty and the government had limited power then imo were back where we started..
Government also can easily be corrupted, and can easily break... Anarchy much?
I agree with you static to a certain extent.
The problem with our society is that we are letting idiotic people teach our kids whats right in this world
When we have different ways of teaching our offspring we have different views on this world. We tend to have different beliefs when we have different beliefs that creates tension, When we have tension we have wars.
Now imagine what whould happen if all of our children were raised by everyone in the community. Everyone whould be on the same page in intelligence and opportunities whould be the same for all. No one single man whould be supier to anthor and everyone whould be treated equally as society meant for us to be.