Infinite loops

[X-DiViiNe-WiCkEdNeSS-X]

Are infinite loops really illegal in official tournaments? For those of you that don't know what an infinite loop is here is an example:
Let's say I have a Junk Warrior on my side of the field, a Morphtronic Magnen Bar, and some random monster. Morphtronic Magnen Bar will gain JW and the random monsters attack and JW will gain his attack. Their attack will continue to rise together until they reach infinite attack.

Now for your opinion or the real fact. IS IT ILLEGAL?

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Actually, I don't believe Junk Warrior would gain any additional ATK, as he only gains ATK when he hits the field. Not any time afterward. Also, Magnen's effect has to be manually activated, and it's only once per turn.

Infinite Loops are illegal. You are not allowed to start an infinite loop willingly in a duel, and any card that is activated unwillingly to create an infinite loop will either be destroyed, returned to its original position, or disregarded at the discretion of the judge.

[evilfusion]

Infinite loops are disallowed. Of course they're illegal, because they're impossible to end. So, the rule is you cannot perform any action knowing it will trigger an infinite loop.

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='Necrophagist' timestamp='1290570588' post='4806526']
Are infinite loops really illegal in official tournaments? For those of you that don't know what an infinite loop is here is an example:
Let's say I have a Junk Warrior on my side of the field, a Morphtronic Magnen Bar, and some random monster. Morphtronic Magnen Bar will gain JW and the random monsters attack and JW will gain his attack. Their attack will continue to rise together until they reach infinite attack.

Now for your opinion or the real fact. IS IT ILLEGAL?
[/quote]

1) Morphtronic Magnen Bar gains attack once per turn. This is an Ignition Effect, not a Continuous Effect. The ATK increases when you choose to activate "Morphtronic Magnen Bar"'s effect to gain ATK based on the two other ATK position monsters. Once that attack is gained, no matter what happens to the other two attack position monsters that turn, the ATK gained by Morphtronic Magnen Bar gets does not change.

2) Junk Warrior only gains ATK when it is Synchro Summoned. This is a Trigger Effect, not a Continuous Effect. After the effect resolves, it does not matter what happens to the other Level 2 or lower monsters. The ATK gained by Junk Warrior will not change.

Yes, Infinite Loops are illegal BUT what you listed is NOT an infinite loop.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

The reason infinite loops are illegal has a couple reasons. First and foremost, it's because you can't stop them. The game would never end (in most cases). Another reason is that they can create an unfair advantage which makes the game less fun for players, and causes cards to become more powerful than they are intended to be by their own effects, thus they would otherwise be given "banability" status when it otherwise could be avoided.

[~NOiSE~]

Does this include card effects like those of Marauding Captain and Magician's Valkeria? I believe those effects are considered infinite loops as well (i.e. Playing two Marauding Captains, preventing your opponent from attacking any Warrior-type monsters you control).

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

No, it is not an infinite loop because there is nothing occuring as the effects work, and they are not bouncing their effects off of one another. I would explain it better, but I can't think of the proper wording.

[Umbra]

A good example of an infinite loop would be The Wicked Avatar + Hero Mask, which would result in the Wicked Avatar gaining infinite ATK.

[evilfusion]

[quote name='Jester Head' timestamp='1290574473' post='4806638']
Does this include card effects like those of Marauding Captain and Magician's Valkeria? I believe those effects are considered infinite loops as well (i.e. Playing two Marauding Captains, preventing your opponent from attacking any Warrior-type monsters you control).
[/quote]

What? No, those aren't infinite loops. Those are attack locks.

Infinite loops are a never-ending set of actions that occur without control. The Continuous Trap Pole Position, for example, makes the monster with the highest ATK immune to Spells. An infinite loop occurs if the monster affected by Pole Position loses its status as the strongest monster as a result of being immune to Spells, which means a different monster is now immune to Spells instead, so the Spell affecting the first monster is reapplied, which makes it the strongest monster, which means it's now immune to Spells, so the Spell affecting it no longer applies, so a different monster is now stronger...

That's an infinite loop.

[~NOiSE~]

Thank you everyone for enlightening me.

I really need to start taking children's card games more seriously xD

Curious: How does Wicked Avatar + Hero Mask = Infinite ATK? I must be missing something...

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='Umbra' timestamp='1290574924' post='4806646']
A good example of an infinite loop would be The Wicked Avatar + Hero Mask, which would result in the Wicked Avatar gaining infinite ATK.
[/quote]

This does not occur. Changing "The Wicked Avatar"'s name does not change itself as a reference to its own effect. The effect still considers the card with the changed name as "The Wicked Avatar" for the sake of its effect and would not consider itself for calculating its ATK.

[Umbra]

[quote name='darkwolf777' timestamp='1290576333' post='4806678']
This does not occur. Changing "The Wicked Avatar"'s name does not change itself as a reference to its own effect. The effect still considers the card with the changed name as "The Wicked Avatar" for the sake of its effect and would not consider itself for calculating its ATK.
[/quote]

That'll teach me for not knowing my rulings. Thanks for that clarification.

[DARKPLANT RISING]

Most cards with infinate loops were banned by Konami anyways.

If a new one comes out... it becomes unusable anyways. Anyways, it's like that anyways.

[evilfusion]

There's a difference between an infinite loop and a regular loop. The key difference is control. You cannot control an infinite loop, so you cannot stop it, which is why the game state shuns them. A regular loop is an action you can do an unlimited number of times, such as the Butterfly Dagger + Gearfried + Spell Absorption/Royal Magical Library/whatever combo you're doing. You can do the action of Equipping Dagger to Gearfried, who destroys it, and return Dagger to your hand. You can then perform this as often as you like, but notably you can choose to stop doing it.

[sebihp2007]

*sigh* .. if you want an example of infinite loop, here:

There is a card out there (forgot the name) which makes it so that the monster with the highest ATK is not affected by Spells ..

Now, say you have monster A on the field with 1500 ATK and monster B with 2000 ATK while that card is in play.. Currently, monster B is not affected by spell cards. Say you use Axe of Despair (an equip card which increases the attack of a monster by 1000) on monster A .. its attack will increase from 1500 to 2500; now he is the strongest monster of the field and, hence, it is not affected by spell cards; so he's not affected by Axe of Despair. Therefore, his ATK is 1500. But now he is no longer the strongest monster out there. So he can be affected bY Axe. His ATK is now 2500.. But he is not the strongest monster on the field, etc, etc ..

Infinite Loops are not allowed because you can NOT take the result of an infinite loop. What would happen in the above situation? You can see what happens, but what will be the final result? You can't tell .. that's why you are not allowed to start an infinite loop ..

[evilfusion]

[quote name='sebihp2007' timestamp='1290609150' post='4807020']
*sigh* .. if you want an example of infinite loop, here:

There is a card out there (forgot the name) which makes it so that the monster with the highest ATK is not affected by Spells ..

Now, say you have monster A on the field with 1500 ATK and monster B with 2000 ATK while that card is in play.. Currently, monster B is not affected by spell cards. Say you use Axe of Despair (an equip card which increases the attack of a monster by 1000) on monster A .. its attack will increase from 1500 to 2500; now he is the strongest monster of the field and, hence, it is not affected by spell cards; so he's not affected by Axe of Despair. Therefore, his ATK is 1500. But now he is no longer the strongest monster out there. So he can be affected bY Axe. His ATK is now 2500.. But he is not the strongest monster on the field, etc, etc ..

Infinite Loops are not allowed because you can NOT take the result of an infinite loop. What would happen in the above situation? You can see what happens, but what will be the final result? You can't tell .. that's why you are not allowed to start an infinite loop ..
[/quote]

This, including the specific example, was established in this post by me:

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1290574985' post='4806647']
Infinite loops are a never-ending set of actions that occur without control. The Continuous Trap Pole Position, for example, makes the monster with the highest ATK immune to Spells. An infinite loop occurs if the monster affected by Pole Position loses its status as the strongest monster as a result of being immune to Spells, which means a different monster is now immune to Spells instead, so the Spell affecting the first monster is reapplied, which makes it the strongest monster, which means it's now immune to Spells, so the Spell affecting it no longer applies, so a different monster is now stronger...

That's an infinite loop.
[/quote]

Although one small correcton. It's not that you can't tell the final result...it's that the final result forever fluctuates with no control.

[sebihp2007]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1290609384' post='4807028']
This, including the specific example, was established in this post by me:
[/quote]

Srry about that, only read to the point where somebody said that having 2 Command Knights was an infinite loop

[Mysty]

Evilfusion, remember that, even though you cannot purposely start in an infinite loop, sometimes they can legitimately happen, especially if Pole Position is involved. If this happens, Pole Position is destroyed and nothing is destroyed by Pole Position's effect.

Example: I'm playing handless and I have Muka Muka equipped with Axe of Despair (ATK 1600). My opponent has Pole Position and Dark Grepher (ATK 1700). I draw a card at the beginning of my turn, increasing Muka Muka's ATK by 300 (ATK 1900 -> 900 -> 1900...). Pole Position is destroyed and nothing is destroyed by its effect.

[evilfusion]

Yes, I know. You cannot purposely start one or perform any action that will trigger it, but if one occurs unintentionally, the card causing it is destroyed. Pole Position is just that card that makes the most infinite loops in the game, due to its effect.

[Toffee.]

ITT: Junk Warrior's effect is continuous
And as the above reasons have stated, if an infinite loop happens, then all the cards that take part in said loop are just simply auto-destroyed.

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1290615218' post='4807163']
ITT: Junk Warrior's effect is continuous
And as the above reasons have stated, if an infinite loop happens, then all the cards that take part in said loop are just simply auto-destroyed.
[/quote]

Well, its not all the cards o.x Pole Position loops usually just destroy only Pole Position.

Recent test in game on the Morphing Jar #2/All-Out Attacks loop proved to not destroy anything. Morphing Jar #2 in the end can no longer be activated.

[X-DiViiNe-WiCkEdNeSS-X]

O.o. Junk Warrior's effect is continuous. Thanks for the clarification guys

[evilfusion]

No, Junk Warrior's effect is NOT continuous. It's a Trigger Effect that activates when it's Summoned. It's ATK will only change once based on the level 2 or below monsters, and not be modified afterwards.

[darkwolf777]

*Comment removed due to fail*

[evilfusion]

Translation, just to be sure: ITT remarks tend to be sarcastic and 99% of the time mean the immediate opposite of what it says.