19 replies to this topic

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

Authority has always existed in the world... However how much should be allowed in any country? Should we all increase Authority to keep people safe yet devoid them of more freedoms... Or should we decrease authority and risk the safety of the people but give them more freedoms... What do you think?

[Agro]

This conversation seems to revolve more closely to the separation of powers.

In other words, do you give all the power to 1 person, or split it up so that not one person can take control.

Many would simply tell themselves that giving it to one is a bad idea and pointing to any one corrupt tyrant. But you would not want to split the power up too much. Why? Because it's inefficient. Look at the United States government today. They are incapable of doing much of anything because they pretty much all need to agree on a certain topic.

So the real argument is: Do we avoid potential problems with power? Or try to be as efficient as possible? The problem with both of these ideologies is that neither one is sound. They are not sound because they are based on incorrect information. The first is that the leader will think of the people first and foremost, and the second, that the people will agree on what is best for the people.

We are held back in either idea, because we base all of our systems on the idea that the human soul is incorruptible. And that is why neither is a good option.

[Nightmare Zarkus]

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

quote by Benjamin Franklin I agree with

[Dark]

decrease authority and risk the safety of the people but give them more freedoms

Clearly the more appealing option. I'd rather die free than live in restraint.

[Hydra of Ages]

Best solution: Give total authority to the most capable, empathetic, intelligent, incorruptible and self-sacrificing person in the world.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

Best solution: Give total authority to the most capable, empathetic, intelligent, incorruptible and self-sacrificing person in the world.

You call that a solution? That is outright stupid... First of all it is impossible to find a man with those qualities as a total ruler.. Second Authority only angers people who don't want to be told what to do... To give total authority to one man is unfair to the people and the ruler will only resort to greed later... The only time there was a ruler with all those qualities that I know of was Julius Caesar and you saw what happened to him...

[-Issun-]

I don't know quite why, but you saying that last part reminded me of when Alice complained that she didn't like being told what cards she can and can't use, but that's off topic.

OT: It's quite a hard choice, but yeah, I think I'd rather die then be totally restrained.

[Devil's Advocate]

Haven't you all ever heard of Machiavelli?

It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both. It is much more secure to be feared than loved.

Machiavelli studied the way people lived and aimed to inform leaders how they should rule and even how they themselves should live. This quote pretty much sums up what it means to be a ruler. If you are feared as a ruler, it is harder for the people to rebel against you. If you are feared, you can crush any tiny rebellion with the palm of your hand. if you are respected, there will always be someone gunning after your head in an attempt to take you down so that person can claim all of that power. And that, people, is called jealousy. It has existed throughout human history as far as we can remember. Machiavelli was a philosopher, and probably one of the best of his time, and he was able to radically change the ideals of the human mind. He was also responsible for practically creating "political science".

If anyone is a role model in my book, it is definitely Niccolo Machiavelli. People with Authority should be feared, not loved. People should adorn the title, not the title adorn them.

And yes, Julius Caesar was very tragic.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

Haven't you all ever heard of Machiavelli?



Machiavelli studied the way people lived and aimed to inform leaders how they should rule and even how they themselves should live. This quote pretty much sums up what it means to be a ruler. If you are feared as a ruler, it is harder for the people to rebel against you. If you are feared, you can crush any tiny rebellion with the palm of your hand. if you are respected, there will always be someone gunning after your head in an attempt to take you down so that person can claim all of that power. And that, people, is called jealousy. It has existed throughout human history as far as we can remember. Machiavelli was a philosopher, and probably one of the best of his time, and he was able to radically change the ideals of the human mind. He was also responsible for practically creating "political science".

If anyone is a role model in my book, it is definitely Niccolo Machiavelli. People with Authority should be feared, not loved. People should adorn the title, not the title adorn them.

And yes, Julius Caesar was very tragic.

I have Machiavelli's The Prince and he is a genius! And all hail Caesar he was the only smart one...

[Hydra of Ages]

You call that a solution? That is outright stupid... First of all it is impossible to find a man with those qualities as a total ruler.. Second Authority only angers people who don't want to be told what to do... To give total authority to one man is unfair to the people and the ruler will only resort to greed later... The only time there was a ruler with all those qualities that I know of was Julius Caesar and you saw what happened to him...

It has to be male?

And your point seems to be that it's a perfect solution, except that people wouldn't like that and would purposely try to sabotage it in any way they can. Which, you know, people already try to do every day. Note that every country leader has bodyguards.

(Yes, I know that it's impossible to find someone like that, that was the point. And no, Julius was not even close to a perfect leader.)

[Dr. Cakey v2.22]

This topic has made two false presuppositions: first, that there is some kind of sliding scale of Liberty vs. Safety. And second, that authority is inherently dangerous.

You call that a solution? That is outright stupid... First of all it is impossible to find a man with those qualities as a total ruler.. Second Authority only angers people who don't want to be told what to do... To give total authority to one man is unfair to the people and the ruler will only resort to greed later... The only time there was a ruler with all those qualities that I know of was Julius Caesar and you saw what happened to him...

Most people who don't want to be told what to do really just want to be told what to do by someone they agree with. The rest are called anarchists. And were it a few hundred years ago, I would have told all the anarchists to gtfo and go somewhere where they don't have to have the man to get them down, but unfortunately we have run out of land to send our undesirables off to. So instead they can go to Canada Texas whichever you find more humorous.

Haven't you all ever heard of Machiavelli?



Machiavelli studied the way people lived and aimed to inform leaders how they should rule and even how they themselves should live. This quote pretty much sums up what it means to be a ruler. If you are feared as a ruler, it is harder for the people to rebel against you. If you are feared, you can crush any tiny rebellion with the palm of your hand. if you are respected, there will always be someone gunning after your head in an attempt to take you down so that person can claim all of that power. And that, people, is called jealousy. It has existed throughout human history as far as we can remember. Machiavelli was a philosopher, and probably one of the best of his time, and he was able to radically change the ideals of the human mind. He was also responsible for practically creating "political science".

If anyone is a role model in my book, it is definitely Niccolo Machiavelli. People with Authority should be feared, not loved. People should adorn the title, not the title adorn them.

And yes, Julius Caesar was very tragic.

The Prince is basically the monarchic equivalent of the Evil Overlord List.

In summary, almost no one here has figured out that government is descriptive, not proscriptive.

EDIT: Where did you get that idea that Caesar was the world's greatest leader ever etc. etc. etc.

[Devil's Advocate]

The Prince is basically the monarchic equivalent of the Evil Overlord List.

Except Machiavelli came first, and wasn't influenced by the MEDIA (oh no, it's the big M word!). And Machiavelli was probably a lot smarter than most of your television tropes.

EDIT: That made no sense. How does that compare to Machiavelli's quotes?

[Chaos Dralcax]

Authority < Majority. However, that never happens.

[AyanamiRei]

Run everything by computers, one day it eventually will. Instead of giving power/authority to someone who can become corrupt because that person has a mind, give it to something that dosen't think. A perfect being, perfect artificial intelligence.

[Hydra of Ages]

Run everything by computers, one day it eventually will. Instead of giving power/authority to someone who can become corrupt because that person has a mind, give it to something that dosen't think. A perfect being, perfect artificial intelligence.

I like the way this one thinks.

[Dr. Cakey v2.22]

Except Machiavelli came first, and wasn't influenced by the MEDIA (oh no, it's the big M word!). And Machiavelli was probably a lot smarter than most of your television tropes.

EDIT: That made no sense. How does that compare to Machiavelli's quotes?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "influenced by the MEDIA".

You seem to be heaping undue adoration on someone who gave relatively good advice on how to successfully run a country/princedom/city-state for as long as you're alive. With such sage advice as, "get your minion to be cruel then, when you come in, you'll seem gentle by comparison, so just hang your minion to keep the people happy" or, in fact, that it's better to be feared than loved...

Trying to think of how many current successful countries have governments that are feared. I've got...China.

[Vough]

"Freedom without responsibility is no freedon at all."

That's one of my favorite quotes. Ever.

I would rather be safe, but denied some freedom, than live in total lawlessness.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

Lawlessness combined with understanding would be such a good pair...Lawlessness is a world I prefer when it comes to authority... I hate it...

[Nightmare Zarkus]

Complete lawlessness would eventually roll over into safety anyway, as there'd either be a complete social upheaval or another authority figure raising up

[Vough]

Lawlessness combined with understanding would be such a good pair...Lawlessness is a world I prefer when it comes to authority... I hate it...

I don't understand what you're getting at.
And why would Lawlessness and Understanding be a good a pair? And an understanding of what?