A Thought Experiment on [Dark Strike Fighter]

[玄魔の王]

We all know this guy. Most of us remember the damage he caused, enough to become the first Synchro Monster to be banned.

 

 

1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
You can Tribute 1 monster to inflict damage to your opponent equal to its Level x 200.

 

 

It seems like such a simple effect, but the fact it can Tribute itself and possessed no real limitations when released (nowadays it cannot Tribute Xyz, but it was banned before those appeared) made it a game-breaker. Just ask the Synchro Cat format.

 

So why do I bring this up? Recently, Catapult Turtle got a nerf limiting its effect to once per turn. Which was fine for it, but I feel this thing needed a bit more. So I propose this thought experiment: what if Konami restored its anime effect? For those unfamiliar, this is as follows:

 

1 Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters

Once per turn, you can Tribute 1 monster, except this card, to inflict damage to your opponent equal to its Level x 200. If you activate this effect, this card cannot declare an attack this turn.

 

If it was nerfed back to this state, would it be acceptable to unban this card? It gives LV7 decks their own Cowboy, either a strong beater or a burn for game, but not a Cannon Soldier on steroids. 

 

Discuss.

[werewolfjedi]

I would actually agree to that, totally fair. it can go for 1400 straight up, or some other number if it' not self tribute, or be a good beater.

[玄魔の王]

I would actually agree to that, totally fair. it can go for 1400 straight up, or some other number if it' not self tribute, or be a good beater.

Under anime effect it cannot Tribute itself, meaning even if you get two out at once only one can deal burn. It amazes me how much Konami buffed this thing for the OCG.

[Zauls]

The trouble is the anime effect is actually pretty mediocre. Give it all the anime restrictions apart from not being able to Tribute itself and it becomes a more difficult to summon but more rewarding Cowboy that also can't be Fiendish Chained etc. It will make Blackwings better because it is already one of the best decks at stealing wins with damage out of nowhere and this just furthers that, which is fine because the deck needs something. Errata it to give some restrictions, but not as much as the Anime had.

[玄魔の王]

The trouble is the anime effect is actually pretty mediocre. Give it all the anime restrictions apart from not being able to Tribute itself and it becomes a more difficult to summon but more rewarding Cowboy that also can't be Fiendish Chained etc. It will make Blackwings better because it is already one of the best decks at stealing wins with damage out of nowhere and this just furthers that, which is fine because the deck needs something. Errata it to give some restrictions, but not as much as the Anime had.

That's fair.

[ihop]

The thing is the anime effect is really bad and aside from being a 2600 beater which I suppose is reasonable (but Black Rose's 2400 isn't bad and most decks that can make a level 7 can make a specific level 7 which is better e.g. Burei, good Black Rose in Sylvans, Blackwing Armor Master.) I'd rather have DSF stay banned as a reminder of how broken that format was (DSF for sure was one of the worst things to happen to the game) than have it barely be used.

[Toffee.]

It's funny how we are all saying the anime version is random/slow/mediocre/etc/etc, and yet, it's a legitimately fair version of this card's IRL counterpart.

[Zauls]

It's funny how we are all saying the anime version is random/slow/mediocre/etc/etc, and yet, it's a legitimately fair version of this card's IRL counterpart.

 

Fair yes, but the trouble is that it wouldn't be that useful with its anime effect. Fairness isn't what we want, it is usability without being broken.

[玄魔の王]

It's funny how we are all saying the anime version is random/slow/mediocre/etc/etc, and yet, it's a legitimately fair version of this card's IRL counterpart.

Bad cards are still fair in that they don't afford the player excessive advantage. It's one of those Ra circumstances where it has 3 things weighing it down, and that's too much. Let's break it down.

-Once per turn: okay, this is probably what it should have been to begin with, and since Catapult Turtle is getting the same makeover I'm unsurprised.

-One other monster: the one people object to the most because it means topdecking Masked Chameleon and going into this means you get a 2600 vanilla, and Scrap Archfiend, bad as it is, does that job better.

-Cannot attack this turn: middle of the road, it doesn't stop a battle phase but it does stop it doing 4k by itself.

If we took just the first two, you could attack with two monsters, then sac the other for extra damage. If you took the last two, it's still meh because it requires a decidated move to bring out a glorified Cannon Soldier. Take the first and last two, it becomes Cowboy, which is still a fair card but actually good. Give it all 3 and it's way too limited in use.

[Blake]

If you made it "OPT: You can sack 1 monster; Inflict damage x200. This card can't attack this turn", I don't see the problem. It'd just be a Gagaga Cowboy.

 

That said, this type of errata is bad for the game.

[Sora1499]

If you made it "OPT: You can sack 1 monster; Inflict damage x200. This card can't attack this turn", I don't see the problem. It'd just be a Gagaga Cowboy.
 
That said, this type of errata is bad for the game.

How so?

[玄魔の王]

That said, this type of errata is bad for the game.

"I can fix my mistakes. This is a bad thing."

[Blake]

How so?

Instead of just ponying up and outright admitting your mistakes, you're making it so that you might not errata it enough, and then it needs another errata, and then every unbalanced card has people calling for an errata immediately, and it makes it so that you constantly have to rewrite what a card does both for the players and officials.

 

In addition, it makes older copies of the card unusable, rendering them a complete and utter waste of money. A banlist can be temporary and a card may come back into power, but an errata is forever. And yes, a card game is inherently a waste of money, but that doesn't mean you should be punished by having a genuinely unplayable card in any scenario. Traditional and Unlimited do exist, they're just not favored by most because of the obvious reasons.

 

An errata is supposed to clear up rulings and wordings, not retcon what a card does. Just make a replacement that's actually balanced. Or just let it rot forever, with the fact that a banlist is not 100% eternal left just in case.

 

I mean, multiple card games have tried retcon!errata and said it was a f***ing horrible idea. Wish I could find the article with MTG's pov on the subject, but alas.

 

"I can fix my mistakes. This is a bad thing."

Gee, I didn't know you needed another way to "fix mistakes" when you have a banlist to take care of your mistakes.

 

Also lol at thinking they're mistakes. Dragon Rulers were a mistake, yes. Spellbook of J was no mistake. Most of the degenerate s*** is no mistake. They're not fixing mistakes; Catapult Turtle can hardly be called such, considering it was never the problem and they just made a gamestate where it would become one, thus they haven't even misused errata TO fix mistakes. And if they're going to hit Catapult Turtle, why not Cannon Soldier? They're peacocking with this more than anything, so idk why you think they're trying to clean up their act or something.

[玄魔の王]

Instead of just ponying up and outright admitting your mistakes, you're making it so that you might not errata it enough, and then it needs another errata, and then every unbalanced card has people calling for an errata immediately, and it makes it so that you constantly have to rewrite what a card does both for the players and officials.

 

In addition, it makes older copies of the card unusable, rendering them a complete and utter waste of money. A banlist can be temporary and a card may come back into power, but an errata is forever. And yes, a card game is inherently a waste of money, but that doesn't mean you should be punished by having a genuinely unplayable card in any scenario. Traditional and Unlimited do exist, they're just not favored by most because of the obvious reasons.

 

An errata is supposed to clear up rulings and wordings, not retcon what a card does. Just make a replacement that's actually balanced. Or just let it rot forever, with the fact that a banlist is not 100% eternal left just in case.

 

I mean, multiple card games have tried retcon!errata and said it was a f***ing horrible idea. Wish I could find the article with MTG's pov on the subject, but alas.

 

Gee, I didn't know you needed another way to "fix mistakes" when you have a banlist to take care of your mistakes.

 

Also lol at thinking they're mistakes. Dragon Rulers were a mistake, yes. Spellbook of J was no mistake. Most of the degenerate s*** is no mistake. They're not fixing mistakes; Catapult Turtle can hardly be called such, considering it was never the problem and they just made a gamestate where it would become one, thus they haven't even misused errata TO fix mistakes. And if they're going to hit Catapult Turtle, why not Cannon Soldier? They're peacocking with this more than anything, so idk why you think they're trying to clean up their act or something.

First of all, I'm using "mistake" as a term meaning "thing I did that I really shouldn't have done".

 

A Banlist isn't an admission of a mistake either, it's basically a half-baked attempt to make people think the problem is no longer there. If you accidentally bring somebody a garden salad instead of a Greek salad, just taking away the garden salad isn't enough; you have to actually bring them a Greek salad. Truly fixing the problem of format-ruining cards would involve giving people their format back, and unfortunately time doesn't work that way. As a result, they're now given two choices: rewrite the cards (which takes time and money) or ban the cards (which just pisses people off). If you're concerned about constant complaints you could, I don't know, just try harder in the first place.

 

And no it doesn't. LOD copies of Troop Dragon are still allowed for play (the original translation forgot the "by battle" part), as one example. They simply refer to the most recent printing of the card for rulings, same as they always have.

 

Being forced to make new, balanced versions of existing cards just takes up space in mainline sets, when rewrites can be relegated to reprint packs that nobody cares about anyway.

 

Cannon Soldier is in a different boat because the amount of damage it does is fixed. Even so, it was never a Yugi card so it wouldn't be in that set, meaning an errata could yet come. And Catapult Turtle had been involved in a couple OTK decks, all of which involved spamming, so they decided to cut their losses and change the way it works.

[Zauls]

Instead of just ponying up and outright admitting your mistakes, you're making it so that you might not errata it enough, and then it needs another errata, and then every unbalanced card has people calling for an errata immediately, and it makes it so that you constantly have to rewrite what a card does both for the players and officials.

 

In addition, it makes older copies of the card unusable, rendering them a complete and utter waste of money. A banlist can be temporary and a card may come back into power, but an errata is forever. And yes, a card game is inherently a waste of money, but that doesn't mean you should be punished by having a genuinely unplayable card in any scenario. Traditional and Unlimited do exist, they're just not favored by most because of the obvious reasons.

 

An errata is supposed to clear up rulings and wordings, not retcon what a card does. Just make a replacement that's actually balanced. Or just let it rot forever, with the fact that a banlist is not 100% eternal left just in case.

 

I mean, multiple card games have tried retcon!errata and said it was a f***ing horrible idea. Wish I could find the article with MTG's pov on the subject, but alas.

 

Gee, I didn't know you needed another way to "fix mistakes" when you have a banlist to take care of your mistakes.

 

Also lol at thinking they're mistakes. Dragon Rulers were a mistake, yes. Spellbook of J was no mistake. Most of the degenerate s*** is no mistake. They're not fixing mistakes; Catapult Turtle can hardly be called such, considering it was never the problem and they just made a gamestate where it would become one, thus they haven't even misused errata TO fix mistakes. And if they're going to hit Catapult Turtle, why not Cannon Soldier? They're peacocking with this more than anything, so idk why you think they're trying to clean up their act or something.

 

Actually, the non-errata versions of cards would probably still be usable but used as if they had the new effect. Also card games aren't inherently a waste of money since if you're clever enough you make good investments in the game and make returns on those investments and end up with a net gain. I think it to be very similar to running an investment bank. 

 

I think DSF was probably a mistake. They realized the anime effect wasn't that great and buffed it, but buffed it too much. There is some stuff that is explicitly intended eg. Geargiagear but I don't see the harm in accepting that you messed up and doing something about it. Bans are obviously an option but banning cards leaves holes in the gamestate that were filled by these cards. An errata'd DSF would fill in a hole and improve the game. Making replacements is also an option but probably not that popular with the fan-base.

[Blake]

First of all, I'm using "mistake" as a term meaning "thing I did that I really shouldn't have done".

Still don't see how this applies to konami

A Banlist isn't an admission of a mistake either, it's basically a half-baked attempt to make people think the problem is no longer there. If you accidentally bring somebody a garden salad instead of a Greek salad, just taking away the garden salad isn't enough; you have to actually bring them a Greek salad. Truly fixing the problem of format-ruining cards would involve giving people their format back, and unfortunately time doesn't work that way. As a result, they're now given two choices: rewrite the cards (which takes time and money) or ban the cards (which just pisses people off). If you're concerned about constant complaints you could, I don't know, just try harder in the first place.

This is a card game. You can't compare it to food like that, because Konami doesn't owe us anything. Customers we may be, but they do not guarantee us anything. We don't tell them what to make, they still make it. They owe you NOTHING.

Every game uses banlists to a degree, be it rotation or minor bans to keep things from overpowering the game in smaller amounts. The fact that Konami's is larger doesn't change that it is takign care of mistakes.

No one gets pissed off when cards are pissed off unless they're idiots that don't care about the game, anyways, so idg your point at all.

And no it doesn't. LOD copies of Troop Dragon are still allowed for play (the original translation forgot the "by battle" part), as one example. They simply refer to the most recent printing of the card for rulings, same as they always have.

Wow, you beat one point that is likely to change if Konami decided to mass print in order to push profit.

Being forced to make new, balanced versions of existing cards just takes up space in mainline sets, when rewrites can be relegated to reprint packs that nobody cares about anyway.

And we care that they're printing balanced versions over shitty pack filler that doesn't matter becaaaaaaaause?

Rewrites take time, money, and care. Don't see how they're better.

Cannon Soldier is in a different boat because the amount of damage it does is fixed. Even so, it was never a Yugi card so it wouldn't be in that set, meaning an errata could yet come. And Catapult Turtle had been involved in a couple OTK decks, all of which involved spamming, so they decided to cut their losses and change the way it works.

I was unaware that Cannon Soldier was less relevant than Catapult Turtle when it has had loop after loop and otk after ftk. Just because they're not relevant doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it deserves a hit before turtle. Furthermore, if Pendulums break turtle, the mistake is Pendulum Summons. I'm not saying Turtle's existence was fine, but it was never the mistake.

[玄魔の王]

Still don't see how this applies to konami

Because repeatedly doing things your client base dislike is damaging to PR?
 

Every game uses banlists to a degree, be it rotation or minor bans to keep things from overpowering the game in smaller amounts. The fact that Konami's is larger doesn't change that it is taking care of mistakes.

Banlists are used because they're a completely un-intensive way to remove problem cards from the game. They wouldn't be necessary if the cards were made in a more sensible way to begin with.
 

No one gets pissed off when cards are pissed off unless they're idiots that don't care about the game, anyways, so idg your point at all.

I dunno man, if my cards were pissed off I'd be pretty pissed off too.

But seriously, I see it all the time: people are pissed off the cards they invested time and money into getting are now worth nothing, whatever deck they put effort (or not) into playing is now no longer an option, and they know it's just going to happen again. I've seen people quit the game over it.
 

And we care that they're printing balanced versions over shitty pack filler that doesn't matter becaaaaaaaause?

Because it's not a dichotomy between the two. You can use it to make actual balanced standalone archetypes, appease collectors with
more high-flare anime cards (NANBAAZU anyone) or, as was done for a while, catch up on retro stuff.
 

Rewrites take time, money, and care. Don't see how they're better.

If given the choice between a sincere and insincere apology, which do you prefer?
 

I was unaware that Cannon Soldier was less relevant than Catapult Turtle when it has had loop after loop and otk after ftk. Just because they're not relevant doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it deserves a hit before turtle. Furthermore, if Pendulums break turtle, the mistake is Pendulum Summons. I'm not saying Turtle's existence was fine, but it was never the mistake.

Catapult Turtle was at one point in time the preferred choice by far. Then Last Will got banned and Cannon Soldier took its place. They're both badly-designed cards, and indeed the only burn effect that seems to actually not be problematic is a Flame Wingman-esque effect, because that's the only time you're actually forced to interact with the opponent to do burn.

Is Pendulum a stupid mechanic? Hell yes, they way overpowered it. Does that mean the burn shotguns get off Scott free? Um, no.

[Just Crouton]

@The turtle stuff: Catapult Turtle was re-worded because someone would figure out a Pendulum OTK with it and four big monsters, and the fear that people will throw down money on Metal Rulers/ Dark Beginning cards to get a playset.

 

They weren't fixing a mistake. They were proactively protecting new product sales like when they killed the 5D's era decks two years back because no one was buying Xyzs. But, banning Catapult Turtle would confuse a crapton of people as to why Konami is banning a card that has never really mattered in its 14-year life.

 

 

Because repeatedly doing things your client base dislike is damaging to PR?
 

Banlists are used because they're a completely un-intensive way to remove problem cards from the game. They wouldn't be necessary if the cards were made in a more sensible way to begin with.
 

_____

 

I'm still shocked that quitting has rarely been considered an option among this, the most dissatisfied playerbase I've ever seen. You don't have to give these people your money. You CAN tell these people to screw off, and go play a better game. Konami will never give you or other players the balanced game you all want, and they don't care what you want. They have one of the most successful card games in the world, and they got there due to a combination of that abortion (since mid-2009) of an anime, and by selling the overpowered cards that everyone hates, and they enjoy having a playerbase that will happily continue to be pissed on as long as a new manga promo or a collector Blue-Eyes variant comes out.

 

And, the banlist isn't a game-balancing tool, at least as of the Zexal era. It's a tool to push out last format's big decks to make sure the competitive players buy the new stuff. The reason why we get stuff like Dragon Rulers is so Konami doesn't need much explanation to kill the deck when the next cycle of factory line archetypes come out. It's basically an excuse to make unfair cards, because everybody can be assured that those rage-inducing decks will be dead in 3-6 months.

 

That being said, they don't need, nor should reword Dark Strike Fighter because it's already banned, and trying to clear off the gigantic banlist by rewording the offenders is going to distract from the new stuff they want to sell.

[玄魔の王]

I'm still shocked that quitting has rarely been considered an option among this, the most dissatisfied playerbase I've ever seen.

It really is surprising that people don't want to be forced into making decisions they may later regret by somebody with whom they cannot directly interact, isn't it?

Konami will never give you or other players the balanced game you all want, and they don't care what you want. They have one of the most successful card games in the world, and they got there due to a combination of that abortion (since mid-2009) of an anime, and by selling the overpowered cards that everyone hates, and they enjoy having a playerbase that will happily continue to be pissed on as long as a new manga promo or a collector Blue-Eyes variant comes out.

A few years back it wasn't nearly the problem it is now. Serial escalation has taken what was once an intermittent and generally simple problem and turned it into a chronic ailment, and I think that's what upsets people most. Still, you're right. The reason the Clone Saga went on as long as it did was because sales were amazing.

Also, the first season of 5D's was awesome, but that's another discussion.

And, the banlist isn't a game-balancing tool, at least as of the Zexal era. It's a tool to push out last format's big decks to make sure the competitive players buy the new stuff. The reason why we get stuff like Dragon Rulers is so Konami doesn't need much explanation to kill the deck when the next cycle of factory line archetypes come out. It's basically an excuse to make unfair cards, because everybody can be assured that those rage-inducing decks will be dead in 3-6 months.

It's also painfully poetic in its insincerity, isn't it?

[goddamnit names are a pain]

Konami Official 1: "Hey guys, I have an idea. Let's take Banned Card A and redo its effect. Less OP and doesn't abuse our brilliant new Normal-monster Summoning-mechanic. We make it once per turn!"
 

Konami Official 2: "Yeah yeah, that could work. We just need to take it even weaker!"

 

Konami Official 3: "While we are at it we could just make it a new card."

 

Konami Officials 1 and 2: "Seems Legit."

 

(They do this and then ask for feedback on it)

Player 1: "This card sucks."

 

Player 2: "It's like it's trying to be Banned Card A but it's doing it very badly."

 

Player 3: Just unban Banned Card A!

 

Konami Officials (All): "This may just work."

 

You see by making it have a crappy effect or a redo terrible things can happen. 

[DARKPLANT RISING]

Okay so I sum it up

Konami needs to testplay[/thread]

[玄魔の王]

Okay so I sum it up

Konami needs to testplay[/thread]

I'm told they do playtest, their playtesters just aren't very good. They use the archetypes as intended (ie using all the members, Extra Deck stuff generally one-ofs), which is of course not what metagamers do. So it's more:

Konami needs players for playtesters [/thread]

[Maeriberii Haan]

Konami need to stop doing drugs[/thread]

[werewolfjedi]

yeah, they need people that actually try to break these decks

[werewolfjedi]

yeah, they need people that actually try to break these decks