Shaddoll Deck Building sayings I don't get

[Marco Polo]

Having played control oriented Shaddolls for almost a year now, there are several common thoughts among users here I do not / can't understand.

 

****NOTE: Bold parts are what I don't think. 

1. We almost always have to run like 10 Synchros, usually 5 or less El Shaddolls. The usual build is 2 Construct, 2 Winda and bonus points for 1 Anomalilith or 1 Shekhinaga. Why so..? What Shaddoll decks make best is their El Shaddolls, an omni set that does almost everything bar stop spells and traps, granted that while they do not do absolutely everything, they cover pretty much huge chunks of the game. Why not run 3 Construct, 3 Winda, 3 Shekh, 2 Egrystal and 3 Anomalilith? The Nekroz matchup would definitely want another Anomalilith instantly up again in case it dies, and each of them at high numbers make for an easier & less worrisome long game. + if using El Shaddoll fusion to evade, you'd usually want to go into the same El Shaddoll you're evading with, so if you had construct on the field, you'd usually chain El Shaddoll to make construct on top of that - making multiple copies of the same El Shaddoll good to have
2. Some counterarguments I usually hear:
   • You mostly want to make Construct. Why? it is a sitting duck doing nothing outside the battle phase, it does not slow the opponent even a slight bit and while it does net you a nice +1 on Summon and a nice battle effect, it just sits there to die next turn. In fact mostly I'd make a run for my Shekhinagas before anything else, knowing that Xyzs and Special Summoned bosses in general still run the game and Shekinaga + Winda - just cancel these bosses out. 
   • Extra Deck space is valuable. Your deck makes El Shaddolls the quickest and best, the damn spells recur so often you'd always have a spell in hand. On the other hand the emergency toolbox Synchros - how many of those are you really going to make? having 1 Felis, 1 glow-up (Felis is run at 1, is it?), a Falco that usually comes to the field face-down (so how often do you actually make Synchros with that thing?)
   • Egrystal and Shekhinaga are bad. see counterargument #1
   • There are no good EARTH or FIRE tech cards, and Nephe Shaddoll is bad so your only option is core. I still don't get why Nephe Shaddoll is "bad". Is giving you access to any El Shaddoll not worth the risk of it being MST'd (a card that is run at max 3, usually less, while your Nephe Shaddoll is infinitely recyclable)? While it does get MST'd, it does not happen often, and the requirement of having a face-up shaddoll is not that much of a con really. Nephe Shaddoll is great. 
3. You shouldn't run 3 of each Doll. 2 hedgehog, 2 falco, 2 squamata are all alright. With the Fusion Spells being recycled every turn or so, and with the whole mechanism of the deck - you'd run out of Dolls rather quick if you run them at less than ~3. I've actually found it to be the more dolls the merrier; having gotten to situations where I've triggered almost all Shaddolls in 1 turn. And having played in really grindly games when I actually had no more Shaddolls in deck. Doesn't running them in low numbers cost you the game at some point?
4. Hound is bad. Run 0. While it is definitely the worst Shaddoll, it is not actually that bad. I've gotten away happily with running 2. I've got to points where its dump effect was pretty much necessary. 

I see that my points are kinda connected: if you run many El Shaddolls - you'd also run the maximum number of Fusion Spells and maindeck dolls as well,

But I still don't get the calculations that people often make.

Not running Nephe Shaddoll, not running Shekh and Egrystal, falling for so many Synchros and crowning of Construct as literally the only thing you'd want to make. 

It just doesn't add up. Shaddolls as a deck have so much to offer, and so much of that is being rejected for silly reasons I feel.

 

rant over thx

[CLG Klavier]

What are you smoking? Shekhinaga is amazing, most builds run Mathematician, Pero Pero Cerberus etc.

 

Are you sure you're playing the deck? .-.

[Marco Polo]

What are you smoking? Shekhinaga is amazing, most builds run Mathematician, Pero Pero Cerberus etc.

 

Are you sure you're playing the deck? .-.

Shekhinaga is indeed amazing, and while most builds run Mathematician - they run shekh at 1.

I've been looking at decklists for long enough to confidently rant about it now. The widest consensus is currently that you run Winda at low numbers and max Construct, and leave the rest either out or if you personally please.

At least that's the vibe.

 

EDIT: Did you read the post at all? The bold parts are not my opinion, they are the arguments I hear all the time and are things I personally don't agree with

[Blake]

http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/332339-chain-link-1-2-3-4-a-guide-to-playing-shaddoll/

 

tl;dr just read this

 

it doesn't cover gooodstuff dolls or traindolls, but those are more prominent in less-than-top and OCG play, respectively, so it makes sense.

[CLG Klavier]

You don't get why no one runs more than 1-2 copies of each Fusion?

 

Because you'll NEVER SUMMON MORE THAN THAT. Like for fuck's sake.

 

Also Construct is the best due to the on-summon mill effect. You get mill from Shaddoll Fusion (or just effects through El-Shaddoll Fusion) AND GET TO DO EVEN MORE WITH THE CONSTRUCT.

[Marco Polo]

You don't get why no one runs more than 1-2 copies of each Fusion?

 

Because you'll NEVER SUMMON MORE THAN THAT. Like for f***'s sake.

 

Also Construct is the best due to the on-summon mill effect. You get mill from Shaddoll Fusion (or just effects through El-Shaddoll Fusion) AND GET TO DO EVEN MORE WITH THE CONSTRUCT.

You sure those are shaddolls you're playing or some hybrid clusterf***?

The opponent would always have answers, and when they do - the El Shaddolls say bye bye and depart. for that soley, you'd have to have more.

lol you'll never summon more than 1-2? we're not playing the same game then.

 

Construct's on summon effect is nice and all, but not nice enough but it doesn't cover what's to come. You mill, and feel the euphoria for a single turn. Construct gets killed next turn because it doesn't hold your opponent at all. it's like you don't know these games take more than 2 turns. 

 

EDIT: @robin I've seen that thread, in fact the suggestions there were the primary reasons why I made this thread in the first place.

[CLG Klavier]

You sure those are shaddolls you're playing or some hybrid clusterf***?

The opponent would always have answers, and when they do - the El Shaddolls say bye bye and depart. for that soley, you'd have to have more.

lol you'll never summon more than 1-2? we're not playing the same game then.

 

Construct's on summon effect is nice and all, but not nice enough but it doesn't cover what's to come. You mill, and feel the euphoria for a single turn. Construct gets killed next turn because it doesn't hold your opponent at all. it's like you don't know these games take more than 2 turns. 

 

EDIT: @robin I've seen that thread, in fact the suggestions there were the primary reasons why I made this thread in the first place.

This is the moment where you go to play the deck for more than apparently 2 games from what it looks like. We don't tell people to run this and don't run this just because we feel like it. It's because those things are [b]proven[/b] to be correct.

 

Name me a single game where you will summon more than 1 Shekh, more than 2 Constructs and more than 1 Winda then come back at me.

[Blake]

EDIT: @robin I've seen that thread, in fact the suggestions there were the primary reasons why I made this thread in the first place.

then why are you making a show of it instead of asking ihop there .-.

[Marco Polo]

This is the moment where you go to play the deck for more than apparently 2 games from what it looks like. We don't tell people to run this and don't run this just because we feel like it. It's because those things are proven to be correct.

 

Name me a single game where you will summon more than 1 Shekh, more than 2 Constructs and more than 1 Winda then come back at me.

almost every second game really.

@robin why not, you can make threads for free you know.

[CLG Klavier]

almost every second game really.

Mind posting your build? Because the main reason why Shaddolls don't need more than those fusions is because they have a fuckton of power plays ASIDE from them. Are you running a completly pure build or what?

[Spinny]

I ,honestly, think it's down to preference how you build your shaddolls since i enjoy the fact that they are diverse, some builds run more fusions since they combo off of the benefits of running all 3 fusion spells, other decks try to push using less fusion spells and more other techs, i think it's down to the player really.

[Blake]

@robin why not, you can make threads for free you know.

because it comes across as attention whoring instead of acually trying to improve?

 

By doing this, and I realie I'm feeding your attempt, you just lower the credibility of your questions. You're not tryign to hash it out with a Shaddoll player, you're trying to make a show.

 

And with that, I wash my hands of this matter.

[Marco Polo]

Mind posting your build? Because the main reason why Shaddolls don't need more than those fusions is because they have a f***ton of power plays ASIDE from them. Are you running a completly pure build or what?

Playing a rather pure build, aside from the usual tech. power plays that are not fusions are probably just BLS. 

 

I ,honestly, think it's down to preference how you build your shaddolls since i enjoy the fact that they are diverse, some builds run more fusions since they combo off of the benefits of running all 3 fusion spells, other decks try to push using less fusion spells and more other techs, i think it's down to the player really.

I like the diversity, but looking at decklists the conclusion is usually that the shaddoll parts of a deck never change. Nephe Shaddoll is usually said to be played at 0. So is Egrystal. Construct is considered the only worthy card there and I didn't feel like there's any diversity in that. So here I come to discuss this.

 

because it comes across as attention whoring instead of acually trying to improve?

 

By doing this, and I realie I'm feeding your attempt, you just lower the credibility of your questions. You're not tryign to hash it out with a Shaddoll player, you're trying to make a show.

 

And with that, I wash my hands of this matter.

Really quick conclusion there. Took you 3 posts of disagreeing to go off and call me a troll.

Am I attention whoring? This is a huge point and that has nothing to do with attention. You're not "feeding" anything, go away if you like.

 

The consensus with the points in the OP is so wide I felt inclined to discuss it in a thread of its own, go figure but the vibe was that it is so "obvious" that you run 0 nephe and mostly construct that I had to tick that off. 

[Delibirb]

I'm with Marco on this. I can see where people can have their preferences but to make it all but law that neph is bad or hound is a 0 is something I disagree with.

[ihop]

Goodness gracious. I'll address your points one by one, shall I?

 

We almost always have to run like 10 Synchros, usually 5 or less El Shaddolls.

idk who says this but it's definitely not me. Realistically you absolutely need about 4 synchros (Armades, Nothung, Arcanite and Leo), with Psyehemuth and Yazi being possibilities, as well as 3-4 Xyz (Castel, Exciton and Emeral are my pick), with like, 7-8 fusions (3 Construct, 1-2 Shek, 2 Winda, 1 Lilith). Counterargument time.

 

You mostly want to make Construct.

Construct is the only Fusion which guarantees you don't lose momentum by fusing because it's more toolboxy than anything else. If you fuse for Winda with, say, Dragon and Beast you've actually set yourself back a fair amount assuming you don't have any Shaddolls whereas with Construct you always have a way to get back in the game since you're guaranteed to be able to get to Hedgehog so you can make sure you have fodder in hand for next turn too. It's also obviously ridiculously important to make Construct in the mirror because you absolutely need to find a way to get Beast to hand or else you'll be at a massive disadvantage when they Shaddoll Fusion. It goes without saying that Shekhinaga is useful in situations but that's assuming a best-case scenario that they have no out to it other than a special summoned monster, which happens rarely - there's stuff like Dark Hole and Raigeki which, if used on Shek, set you back hugely. Most of the top decks also have an easy out to Shek - Nekroz just summon Unicore and Brionac it back, at which point you're really fucked because you were only able to trigger one Shaddoll in the making of Shek and now you won't even get a S/T from hand, the mirror obviously has Shaddoll Fusion which is why you always want to make construct because, as I mentioned before, it's essential to always search Beast, Tellars find it a bit more difficult but they have a lot of backrow that downright beats it (whereas with Construct at least you've been able to trigger one more Shaddoll effect), Qliphort just eat it up and with BA is an exception since you always want to make Winda against them. 

 

Extra Deck space is valuable

lol, Bulb. The 4 "emergency synchros" you play are actually really useful. I sidedeck Mind Control for the mirror and the Qliphort matchup, which means I actually have a face-up Falco surprisingly often, as well as obvious stuff like Shadow Games in End Phase.  as well as the 3 Xyz which, especially Castel, are even more useful than the Synchros because they can deal with certain cards (cough cough Shadow Mirror) better than most things. They're certainly more useful that Grysta (it's shit. inherent summons are really rare in any deck other than Qliphort, which I suppose it's fairly good against if you're not Fiendish Chained - this is likely), your third Shek or your third Winda (Winda's only really useful against BA, Tellars or if you really need to resolve 2 Shaddolls - it sucks against most top decks and the effect actually hinders you quite a lot. If you've made 2 Winda vs BA or Tellars you've probably won already).

 

Egrystal and Shekhinaga are bad.

I explained why Grysta is bad earlier. The other biggest problem is that you can only make it with Core and Nephe and most of the time you'll want to make Construct or, in certain situations, Shek. It's so rarely good that it's hardly worth it. Shek is good, and I never said it wasn't. It's just not the go-to fusion the way Construct is, as I explained earlier.

 

There are no good EARTH or FIRE tech cards, and Nephe Shaddoll is bad so your only option is core

No idea where you get the idea there are no good EARTHs. I played 7 EARTHs at regionals today and as a result I made Shek relatively often. The one downside is that, with the exception of Peropero, you don't want to fuse with your EARTHs if you can avoid it, unless you want to chain El-Fusion to Veiler to let Math dodge it. There really are no good FIRE tech cards. The issue with Nephe is not really the fact that it can be MST'd, it's the fact that you actually need to control a Shaddoll monster, which you often don't want to do since you want to use your Normal Summon for something more useful than say, Hedgehog, or having only Beast to fuse with which is actually a relatively common occurence. It's not awful, by all means, and I'd consider playing one after Lilith comes out, but the fact that you need to control a Shaddoll monster really sets it back.

 

You shouldn't run 3 of each Doll. 2 hedgehog, 2 falco, 2 squamata are all alright

The trouble with running loads of Dolls is twofold - the main issue is that you have the opportunity cost of not being able to play other cards like Upstarts, hand traps, floater dragons and backrow, all of which can help you in games where you don't open a Fusion, which happens fairly often (I had to dig through 17 cards before finally getting to an El-Fusion or a way to send it and add it in one game today. You also don't want to be opening up hands with too many Shaddolls, especially if you don't have a Fusion and especially against decks like Nekroz which can just Trish you if you don't have any outs if you've opened too many monsters since you have no Trish outs and also can't get rid of your hand.

 

Hound is bad. Run 0

Hound is shit.

 

The issue I'm seeing here is that you're assuming a best-case scenario where you always open Shaddoll Fusion and your opponent always leaves an extra deck monster out and has nothing to stop Shaddoll Fusion, which is actually really rare since most matchups have a way of stopping this. Nekroz don't use the extra, Qliphort only leave tribute summoned monsters, Tellars make Diamond most of the time if they use the extra, a competent mirror match player will always look to search for Beast and tribute the fusion in main phase 2 to dodge it. BA is the only deck where it's easy to resolve and even then you need to watch out for Lake. A lot of the time you just need to play a grind game with Shadow Games, Maths and Floater Dragons and then hope to make an explosive El-Shaddoll Fusion play and win.