State of the Metagame discussion: Are we spiralling out of control?

[aaronpoe1988]

Good evening, members of the forum.

 

I have come forward tonight to address you all with a personal concern, and I am greatly hoping that many of you will have serious input and well thought-out replies.

 

There is something, universal in scale, that draws my concern today. Both an example of progress and a destructive flaw, it is the reason that most systems are forced to adapt and change, or are inherently destroyed by what some would simplify as 'stubbornness' or 'progress'.

 

Allow me to explain.

 

In life, something called inflation drives absolutely everything. Inflation affects prices. Inflation affects safety, security, and happiness. Most important to the majority of us right now though, inflation affects efficiency, usability, diversity, and dependency.

 

Most companies, while they may deny it, profit greatly from all forms of inflation. Take the prices of the cards in this game, for example. Many cards that see no popular play, for many varying reasons, cost between 20-60 dollars, solely due to Secret Rare status in the most recent TCG packs. Because of this, cards that ARE good cost far more.

 

Many people agree that, back when 'Invasion of Chaos' was first released, that they marked the highest point of inflation in our beloved card game. Now, many people agree that something like Chaos Sorcerer or Chaos Emperor Dragon isn't really that bad. Cards that have come since can do far more than we could have ever imagined back then. For example, Stardust Dragon is a type of defensive card that, in the old days, would have been ridiculous to conceive. If you stated the overwhelming powers of Honest when we were just introduced to Enemy of Justice, imagine how different those Metas would have been. Imagine Prime Material Dragon being released in Metal Raiders. Imagine Limit Reverse being released in Cybernetic Revolution. Imagine Hand Destruction and Cyber Stein being in Kaiba's Starter Deck, Magical Dimension being in Yugi's Starter Deck, Toon Table of Contents being in Pegasus's Starter Deck, or all of the Gearfried support showing up in Joey's Starter Deck. Think of the impact those cards could have made back then. And think of how many things we would consider to be better have come since then.

 

Imagine Geartown the 3 Gadgets, and Ancient Gear Gadjiltron Dragon being released in The Lost Millennium. Imagine Lyla, Lightsworn Sorceress coming in the same set as Card Trooper. Imagine Zombie World coming out in Pharaohnic Guardian, Mark of the Rose being released with Gigaplant.

 

Imagine that the entire set Force of the Breaker was released in between Labyrinth of Nightmare and Legacy of Darkness. http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Set_Card_Galleries:Force_of_the_Breaker_(TCG-EN) This is the link for the set. Seriously, browse over what was available at the time, then look at this set, and really think about it.

 

There would have been an uproar. People would have really complained. Now, it seems we take the abusive power of these newly released cards as acceptable. Inflation.

 

Now, I do not expect this to change from this thread. I simply am trying to instigate a specific conversation. And these are my starting topics and arguing points:

 

1) Is it possible to make a tournament worthy deck without using any card that has been created since the release of Phantom Darkness? Why or why not?

 

2) Is this good for the average player? Is this good for the company that releases these cards?

 

3) How much farther do you think it will have to go before, as once had to be done with the cards of old, multiple cards from the same sets get laid to rest in order to restore true peace to the metagame? (i.e., a bunch of bans from IOC, or a bunch of limited/bans from LOD and PSV.)

[CrabHelmet]

The topic creator ignores the fact that this tendency to spiral out of control allows us to go BEYOND THE IMPOSSIBLE and to believe in the us that believes in us so that we can ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH

 

Also:

 

Power creep exists.

 

Did I miss anything?

[tonisanoob]

1. no i really dont think so, maybe some well though out perfect circle...owait

 

2. good for company?, yes! good for player?, no!

 

3. true peace will never return, HELL YHEA :D

[iAmNateXero]

1) Is it possible to make a tournament worthy deck without using any card that has been created since the release of Phantom Darkness? Why or why not? Yes. Sadly enough our tournament games aren't ran on skill. Whether or not people admit it or not, Cheating has become a huge part in tournament play. There isn't alot that can combat this, and their isn't alot that one can do against it. This game has gone from good to sour fast, even the best decks are no use to a corrupted player.

 

2) Is this good for the average player? Is this good for the company that releases these cards?Im assuming this is a post response question, so i will address it with the same subject of my last reply. Cheating will have no affect on sales, ever. Sales are driven by the lack of playable cards in the advanced format. What we need is Official "Traditional" format tournaments.

I will explain: Players sell at ridiculously high prices because the Advanced format is the only format used today. With that in mind, nobody ever wants to hold on to a Dead card (banned card) So the sales are to reward those who use them, and those who are afraid that their investments will fail.

This however does not include cards such as CCV, and etc. Rare cards will forever hold high in price simply because we as Americans are greedy. (Compare the U.S. CCV to the price of the Jap CCV)

With Official Traditional Tournaments, holding onto a Dead card (banned card) will never be an issue, there will always be a demand for it, no matter when, where, or how many can be used.

 

3) How much farther do you think it will have to go before, as once had to be done with the cards of old, multiple cards from the same sets get laid to rest in order to restore true peace to the metagame? (i.e., a bunch of bans from IOC, or a bunch of limited/bans from LOD and PSV.) A list like "Atem's" may actually do the current meta game some good. IMO A complete change of the meta game every list change is what this game really needs. It gives players reason to collect, thus generating more cash flow for the companies, and a greater trade stock for players. As the list is now, once certain cards hit the list, they are gone forever. This is what we don't need. This type of list generates a negative economy as far as "Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG" is considered.

[CrabHelmet]

Oh, there were questions, too. Let's see:

 

1) Yes. You just won't win.

 

2) It has the effect of changing this from a game of skill to a game of wallet size. That should answer both parts of this question.

 

3) Mass banning of cards from certain sets is not in and of itself a good idea; however, if multiple banworthy cards exist (they do), and if several of those come from the same sets (they do), then those cards should be banned, which creates the image of mass set murder.

[aaronpoe1988]

To Crabhelmet-

 

You appear to be taking much of this as a joke, and while there is always a time for fun and silliness, I am being deadly serious here. This is of serious concern to me, because the problem seems so easy to curb, so simple to maintain, that it would appear obvious to me that this lack of control that has been spun into context is in no way, shape, or form accidental. I am trying to get some Yu-Gi-Oh minds together here to formulate solid ideas, and you seem to enjoy heckling me. I don't think I deserve that, sir, nor am I impressed.

 

To Toni-

 

Okay, you obviously see the same things that are concerning me. Now what the hell can be done about it? Do you have any personal stake in this scenario at ALL?

 

To Nate-

 

God bless you for a well-reasoned response. If you could PM me any ideas of those decks, or post them here, I would love to hear them. Also, I agree of the cheating on a competitive level. Sadly, I also agree of it's ease in solving. I don't know if making Traditional Format events could completely solve that pricing problem, though. I think that would more likely raise the prices of those cards back to 'business' level, rather than bring down the upper ones. And, I have considered a set rotation concept for this game for quite some time. I think it could work, very well. I'm going to write something up for it, make it more tangible.

 

Anyone else wish to chime in? This is our game, after all, folks. We must see these things and have opinions, speak up on them.

[CrabHelmet]

To Crabhelmet-

 

You appear to be taking much of this as a joke' date=' and while there is always a time for fun and silliness, I am being deadly serious here. This is of serious concern to me, because the problem seems so easy to curb, so simple to maintain, that it would appear obvious to me that this lack of control that has been spun into context is in no way, shape, or form accidental. I am trying to get some Yu-Gi-Oh minds together here to formulate solid ideas, and you seem to enjoy heckling me. I don't think I deserve that, sir, nor am I impressed.

[/quote']

 

Everything in your opening post can be summarized by three words: Power Creep Exists. It's just that you spent ten paragraphs saying it instead of just three words.

 

We all figured that power creed exists ages ago; you're not some messiah who came here with a shining new revelation that nobody had ever noticed before. In fact, I don't think there was anyone who hadn't picked up on it by the time Caius came out and laughed at Zaborg and Granmarg.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

tl;dr

 

I'll read it some other time, but judging from the comments, you probably could have summed the whole thing up in 3 sentences.

 

Edit: Never mind, Crab pretty much summed it up. You're not preaching anything new here.

[Psycho Shocker Android]

I want to say something that I think is relevant here.

 

There was a point where that game was losing players who were buying lots of cards and who didn't care about the price of a card as long as it was good and required little to no skill to use.(A year ago when the dominant decks were PC and Raida) The reason being that they were losing to skilled players even if they were playing the best decks. They coould have kept these players by supporting the tounament scene of traditional format. We have no shonen jumps for this format giving cards that have a high value and they could probably release cards like sixth sense in those.

 

Upperdeck found out that these players are ready to invest in power cards like DAD and JD. Furthermore top duelist have to get these to stay competitive because, lets face it, these decks have a huge advantage over everything else. So even if casual players or newcomers don't like that, they are still making money with the other players and they don't really care.

 

I have an idea to solve the problem and I think it's what they should have done from the beginning. Ban the banworthy cards, and start promoting the traditional format. That way konami/upperdeck can still make powerful cards for the power creeps in the traditional format and have an advanced format with balanced cards. Skilled players would probably play both tournaments. Newcomers, casual players and those with less money to invest could play the advanced format.

 

That was my rant.

 

For the 3 questions :

 

1) Yes but it will still be a deck that cost a lot of money.

 

2) What crab said about this being a money game.

 

3) Time will tell but big things need to happen.

 

Sad fact : DAD is a Rare and emergency teleport is a common in the OCG.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Sad fact : DAD is a Rare and emergency teleport is a common in the OCG.

 

Don't forget the common Crush Card.

[CrabHelmet]

There's nothing sad about that fact. At least that makes it a pure lucksack game rather than a hybrid of money and lucksack.

[Fh-Fh]

For me, there has never been an inflation of price.In fact, I've only seen a DEflation of price. When the first structure came out for me, it was 20$. Now, Zombie World is sold at 10$. Packs have stayed 3.99$ since I got my first pack. DAD started at 300$. It is now 150$. I could go on.

 

1) The point of new cards being released is to change the game and top decktype. It is to keep the game interesting and fresh. To answer your question, Oppression Gadgets.

 

2) I hate having the game come up to a matter of money. Its not fair to anybody.

 

3) I did not understand the question. All I can say is, when they named the set Invasion of Chaos, they weren't joking.

[werewolfjedi]

yeah, I hate konami for making all the cards that brought the normal power level up so high that older decks don't stand even half a chance.

 

ocg jap dad is a rare, ass*****.

 

i also have to say that prsima needs to be printed out in the next pack a reg rare, it has so much use, but is currently very hard for the casual player to even get a single copy. much less 3. the tins are always sold out no matter where you go.