Oriannis Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Even for an OCG, is this card not broken? Beelze, King of Dark Dragons 1 DARK Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monstersCannot be destroyed by battle or card effects. When you take damage from a battle involving this card or from an opponent's card effect: This card gains ATK equal to the amount of damage you took. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildflame Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 It's strong. Like, really strong. But it being non generic and 101 being a thing that exists makes this non-broken in my books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Its pretty bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeriberii Haan Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Strong card, but most deck have ways to get past it easily. It's not 2010, when this would be pretty ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Crouton Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Now, if Monster Mash could semi-consistently put this on the field... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildflame Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Now, if Monster Mash could semi-consistently put this on the field... Plage + Caius/Mali/Sorc Birdman + random 5 that you shouldn't be playing Or hey, Witch of the Black Rose + any 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 It's strong. Like, really strong. But it being non generic and 101 being a thing that exists makes this non-broken in my books. Counters to a card doesn't illeviate its brokenness. That type of argument never works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Noel- Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 tbh, this is so-so card for today meta, 101 is generic and not to mention CED that being a staple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 There are enough methods of non-destruction removal that the inability to be destroyed isn't a big deal. There's things like Fiendish Chain, Compulsory, No.101, D-Prison to get around this. That said, it's very good due to being a solid 3000 beater. But with so much ATK, the effect to gain ATK when you take damage isn't extremely likely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airride Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Counters to a card doesn't illeviate its brokenness. That type of argument never works. When the counter is extremely easy to get out, yes, it is. Hell, even rulers have Big Eye just to steal this and turn it against you. It's not hard to get around. Sure, it can be a nuisance, but as long as you have 101 or 11 still in the extra... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 When the counter is extremely easy to get out, yes, it is. Hell, even rulers have Big Eye just to steal this and turn it against you. It's not hard to get around. Sure, it can be a nuisance, but as long as you have 101 or 11 still in the extra... The problem with the argument is, then you get into hypotheticals. "Oh, you have 101? thats okay, I have a set Black Horn" When a card is hard to get rid of due to needing a very specific card to get rid of it (in this case, Compuls, 101, etc. etc.), even if that card is widespread, there's a problem. In a perfect world, I'd generally be agreeing with you, because we'd always just happen to have the card we need to counter it. Much like the anime. But this isn't a perfect world. Broken stuff exist. I could even use this arguement for pre-banlist Rulers, all because Mind Drain was a thing. All because Vanity's Emptiness was a thing. You get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildflame Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 The thing is, most relevant decks right now can spit out 101 whenever they feel like doing it (and the other ones can probably make Big Eye). It's a different case than with cards like Compulse, Fiendish or D Prison. Because you actually need to draw into them. 101 is a card that you practically can bring out any time you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Counters to a card doesn't illeviate its brokenness. That type of argument never works. It can't work as an example of banlist logic (Because everything has counters), but it can quite happily be used to point out that a card isn't successful in game to the extent that it should logically be. Whilst protection from all kinds of destruction is very powerful in theory, there's literally so many counters already around in decks that it becomes less powerful than it should logically be, and hence not an issue. And that's the deal here, the sheer volume of counters , and the fact one of them is a extra deck staple, hence almost entirely reliable as a counter, renders this card placid in game even if it's effect would imply otherwise. Also the general power creep of the game helps to make this less borked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 The problem with the argument is, then you get into hypotheticals. "Oh, you have 101? thats okay, I have a set Black Horn" When a card is hard to get rid of due to needing a very specific card to get rid of it (in this case, Compuls, 101, etc. etc.), even if that card is widespread, there's a problem. In a perfect world, I'd generally be agreeing with you, because we'd always just happen to have the card we need to counter it. Much like the anime. But this isn't a perfect world. Broken stuff exist. I could even use this arguement for pre-banlist Rulers, all because Mind Drain was a thing. All because Vanity's Emptiness was a thing. You get the point. I think people throw the term "broken" around too loosely. For me, I consider a card to be broken if simply using it gives a player a massive advantage while also be relatively easy to use. Beelze is a beatstick. Monsters with 3000+ ATK are rarely going to die by battle anyway, that just happens to be a bonus. So what we're really looking at is whether the inability to be destroyed by card effects, on a 3000 body, is broken. Non-destruction removal has been a staple of Decks ever since Stardust Dragon. D-Prison is used often. Compulsory is a staple. Most other Decks have some method of overcoming the inability to be "destroyed". Beelze is a good card, but in my eyes, it's not "broken", but that assumes you do pack a form of non-destruction removal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 That moment when you Big Eye one of these and then bludgeon the guy to death with it. I won't contest it's a strong card not because there are tons of shenanigans with it, but because until the opponent DOES use an out to it they're in a really bad spot. Those outs are numerous enough to keep it in check, but let's face it - nobody is making this and then sitting On it You're gonna protect it. The best out are non-targeting, non-destruction removal. Also, Safe Zone on this has literally no Downside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 That moment when you Big Eye one of these and then bludgeon the guy to death with it. I won't contest it's a strong card not because there are tons of shenanigans with it, but because until the opponent DOES use an out to it they're in a really bad spot. Those outs are numerous enough to keep it in check, but let's face it - nobody is making this and then sitting On it You're gonna protect it. The best out are non-targeting, non-destruction removal. Also, Safe Zone on this has literally no Downside. Except it can't attack directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Except it can't attack directly. I stand corrected. Though my point was more "offers targeting protection but won't kill him if they pop it". For added jokes, Safe Zone can be used with Zephyros, whose burn effect will make Beelze a 3400 beater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog King Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Not broken but pretty solid. I use it in Zombies with 2 veiler, 3 fiendish and 2 Lance so it can be annoying for my opponent. Oh and not to mention I could open up with this and void ogre dragoon with like 2 other broken set spells/traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oriannis Posted January 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Looking at these comments, I notice that there are ways of getting around it and taking it out. Heck even control one of these with big eye would be a turn around. The Eff, IMO, is quite good but it already sits on that 3000ATK and that's what i think makes it OP at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Looking at these comments, I notice that there are ways of getting around it and taking it out. Heck even control one of these with big eye would be a turn around. The Eff, IMO, is quite good but it already sits on that 3000ATK and that's what i think makes it OP at least. The 3k makes the effect destruction good, but it makes the battle effect superfluous against every deck but Bujin. Though I guarantee some scrub will attack over this with a Crane-d Susa and realise their mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Unknown Synchron with any dragon ruler containing deck makes it easier to bring out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Unknown Synchron with any dragon ruler containing deck makes it easier to bring out. It's also damn easy in Plants, since Lonefire can fetch LV7s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Counters to a card doesn't illeviate its brokenness. That type of argument never works.You are correct. However, 101, Lightning Chidori, etc. Aren't counters. They're checks. They keep cards like this from being too good by simply existing. You don't have to draw into them like black horn, they're in the extra deck. And even without 101 this isn't broken. Just powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 I find it a little silly how in this topic, we are kinda' sorta' using the '[X] exist so [Y] isn't broken'-logic.It's not so much the above reason, but rather, the game itself. Immunity to all destruction isn't so much of a deciding factor anymore, when we are given plenty of ways to work around that, to literally think nothing of it.Which is a bit of a shame, since this card is still pretty effective in it's own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Also, if you wanna counter those checks, Kaiser Colosseum is hilarious with this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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