Dark Rebellion Xyz Dragon

[Blake]

This is really not that good. The meta post-DUEA has barely any room for R4s in the Extra outside of necessary staples, even in R4.deks like Tellarknights, Star Seraphs and Geargia. Unless there's something extremely relevant in NECH that only a beater can get over, this isn't going to see much play. Also, it targets so it can't get over Leo.

In actuality this does very little that other options won't do better. It won't replace Crazy Box because Crazy Box is run not only as an EEV target, but also to maintain dominant board presence under Skill Drain. It doesn't replace 101 to answer Extra threats, it doesn't replace Blackship to answer Hands and Maestroke typically does a better job of getting over beaters while providing relevant board presence. While it can provide a large beater, it has no real utility other than that and EEV. Before someone makes the Pearl argument, Pearl was run because Verz were a meta-relevant deck and it was typically your only out to first turn Ophion.

I completely disagree.

The thing with this card is that it enables you to dispose of multiple threats for the effort of disposing of one, most times, and it's 2500 to boot.

Pearl is 2600, but it keeps the materials attached and most decks that R4 don't want materials getting stuck. I know that's for Ophion, but even still, Pearl's a terrible card now.

Maining Crazy Box over this for Skill Drain seems stupid. You can run a terrible card for 1 matchup when a better card in most matchups exists. Running 85 post-NECH just isn't logical unless it's a metagame dominated by Skill Drain, and, in that case, any R4.dek is bad anyways.

Maestroke's not even good anymore. SHArk, Castel, DRXD, and so on all do the job better. Sure, it has an extra life potentially, but I'd rather not waste space on a niche card that has everything else do its job better in spades.

Don't see why you're comparing this to 50 when 50 only removes smaller things and DRXD removes primarily bosses, but okay.

Leo argument seems wrong because of the fact that most decks aren't going to just spit out a Leo and call it a day. If they leave anything bigger than, say, Undine out, then this CAN beat over Leo. If they leave said undine out for whatever reason, then it can crash with Leo.

Also, back to the first point:
1-2 Abyss Dweller
1 Castel
1 101
1 Exciton
1 Ragnazero (format dependent somewhat, not entirely)
1 Diamond Dire Wolf
0-1 Lavalval Chain (deck by deck)
0-1 Emeral (dbd)
0-1 Number 50 (Second Dweller does it better most times so not really a fan)
0-1 Number 80
0-1 Cairngorgon (Only good v Monarchs and sorta Satellars, not really worth the space when other options exist)
0-1-2 Noden (Dependent on if counting Korea)

Not counting Noden, that's only a max of 12. 3 slots left for deck specific or whatever. And out of the last 5, 50 and Cairn aren't even that high a priority. I'd rather run EEV target pseudo-removal that takes care of bosses than run those.

Yang Zing leave DEF Baxias, which this helps dispose of. It can also help dispose of Yazi, coming up in NECH, who is often seen next to said Baxia, rendering either Castel or 101 not enough to dispose of them. Not to mention Maestroke's complete inability to do anything to that.

It's in no way the godsend for R4, given all the good stuff it has, but it's definitely one of the better options for R4.dek. It's a beater that actually does a decent job, instead of examples like Utopia or Pearl who just sit there completely and don't contribute to removal of threats. It's a card that hits a power threshold that R4 generally can't, and that alone is enough to make it a decent enough card.

[Ultravires]

I completely disagree.

Nothing more to say about Pearl, I was clearly pre-empting with the counterargument for those who would have said "well, Pearl was/is good" which is a retarded argument in itself but I've seen people make it on here.

 

Crazy Box was run in quite a few Tellarknight/Star Seraph/Geargia decks this weekend at ACS Malaysia and ACS Singapore to get under Ruler Drain and Train Drain, both of which had strong showings. I forgot to mention Castel, that too is a better choice than this is. Maestroke still does a relatively similar job, and is very relevant for getting over Midrash and to counter some 3-mat plays, though it isn't optimal.

 

I'm comparing it to 50 because while they do different things, 50 is a requirement in a Hand dominated meta, and it is also relevant post-DUEA due to R4.deks leaving unused 4s with relevant effects on the field after going off, particularly in Star Seraphs which were used as a complimentary engine in Tellarknights.

 

Shaddolls and Cosmics put Leo on the board with relative ease and sit on it while farming hand advantage with mills. This was particularly relevant in the top 32 at Singapore where Shaddoll players were putting Leo on the field, typically with Midrash, to pressure the board while breaking up heavy backrow before swinging.

 

All relevant R4 decks in the OCG currently have packed Extras. Geargia has multiple slots accounted for with 3 GGX, Zenmaines/Leviair and R7s. Tellarknights/Star Seraphs and combined variants have their respective 3-mats, Rhongomiant, Paladynamo, Omega, M7, Heartland to punch for game and Shock Master, though the last is irrelevant for the TCG. Shaddolls (and Cosmics, though they aren't relevant) have space for 1-4 R4s, and that's pushing it. This isn't worthy of a spot.

I'm not saying it doesn't have its uses. I'm not saying that it's complete ass either. I'm saying that it's nowhere near as good as people think it is, because in the majority of cases other options that are already staples or near-staples do the same jobs as good or better. Bringing up Utopia and Pearl is a joke at best. R4 power creep has rendered even this attempt "too balanced" compared to the rest of the toolbox.

[Blake]

Nothing more to say about Pearl, I was clearly making the counterargument for people who would have said "well, Pearl was good and this does the same thing but better."
 
Crazy Box was run in quite a few Tellarknight/Star Seraph/Geargia decks this weekend at ACS Malaysia and ACS Singapore to get under Ruler Drain and Train Drain, both of which had strong showings. I forgot to mention Castel, that too is a better choice than this is. Maestroke still does a relatively similar job, and is very relevant for getting over Midrash.
 
I'm comparing it to 50 because while they do different things, 50 is a requirement in a Hand dominated meta, and it is also relevant post-DUEA due to R4.deks leaving unused 4s with relevant effects on the field after going off, particularly in Star Seraphs which were used as a complimentary engine in Tellarknights.

Shaddolls and Cosmics put Leo on the board with relative ease and sit on it while farming hand advantage with mills. This was particularly relevant in the top 32 at Singapore where Shaddoll players were putting Leo on the field, typically with Midrash, to pressure the board while breaking up heavy backrow before swinging.
 
All relevant R4 decks in the OCG currently have packed Extras. Geargia has multiple slots accounted for with 3 GGX, Zenmaines/Leviair and R7s. Tellarknights/Star Seraphs and combined variants have their respective 3-mats, Rhongomiant, Paladynamo, Omega, M7, Heartland to punch for game and Shock Master, though the last is irrelevant for the TCG. Shaddolls (and Cosmics, though they aren't relevant) have space for 1-4 R4s, and that's pushing it. This isn't worthy of a spot.

I'm not saying it doesn't have its uses. I'm not saying that it's complete ass either. I'm saying that it's nowhere near as good as people think it is, because in the majority of cases other options that are already staples or near-staples do the same jobs as good or better. Bringing up Utopia and Pearl is a joke at best. R4 power creep has rendered even this attempt "too balanced" compared to the rest of the toolbox.

But that's the OCG. Ruler Drain and Train Drain aren't decks over here and likely won't be. Ruler Drain has a shot, but Mythic is better. And NECH isn't out, anyways, so this in regards to box has yet to be seen.

I don't see 50 as a requirement. Abyss Dweller is better in almost every way, and while 50 is good, it's still not comparable. Their slots aren't comparable.

You just proved my point about Leo. While not all R4.deks can spit out a R4 against LeoRash, it does not change the fact that if they have a Midrash out next to Leo, then this can kill Leo. The only time this loses to Leo is when they have nothing else on the board.

Heartland is only playable in things like Madolche, and it's certainly not worth a general R4 spot by any means. It's a mediocre card that is usually worse than Cowboy, and its only saving grace is that it has a secondary effect in regards to continuous/field spells.

Shadoll/Cosmic point is neither here nor there because we're talking R4.dek, not general R4. And even then, you went over 2 R4.deks; Satellars/Seraphs, which are primarily 3-mat centric, and Geargia. As "R4.dek", this is not a good amount of description. I'm not saying every tier deck will run it, but I'm also saying that you can't say that it seems unlikely that Gears/Satellars will doesn't mean that it's not a valuable Rank 4. And if they have room for Box, this seems better post NECH.

I'm definitely not saying it's the best, but it is worth a space. Niche as it is, it's still a 2500 that helps clear multiple bosses.

[Ultravires]

[redacted]

 

Dragon Plants > Drain Dragons > Mythic Rulers, ask any top player.

I run double Dweller in most decks. Blackship is still very relevant right now. The 1k is huge due to the fact that good players will hold Soul Charge rather than blow it early, unless they're playing Bujin/Geargia where they need to re-establish board presence/engine after an engine card is popped.

 

If I'm playing Shaddolls and have Leo/Midrash on the field, I really hope you go into this, blow your Special and get over Leo. It'll make my job that much easier.

Draco is not "only playable" in Madolche. It puts in an incredible amount of work swinging for game. Countless times at both ACS, Tellarknights used a single copy of Sham to pressure Life totals when the board was a stalemate, then punched for game with Draco when they should not have otherwise won. It also did work in Geargia, sacking wins from nowhere, though overall the pure deck had a weak showing.

I'm not talking about just R4 decks, I'm talking about the relevant metagame as a whole including the R4 decks that are currently making an impact. Tellarknights, Star Seraphs and Geargia are the only relevant "R4" decks in the OCG currently, though they do not use exclusively 2-mat R4s. Geargia will be the only truly relevant TCG R4 deck once we get DUEA, unless we get 86. R4 decks are only relevant in the OCG right now due to Shock Master.

inb4someX-3bashesonmyconstantuseoftheword"relevant"

[Blake]

Dragon Plants > Drain Dragons > Mythic Rulers, ask any top player.

I run double Dweller in most decks. Blackship is still very relevant right now. The 1k is huge due to the fact that good players will hold Soul Charge rather than blow it early, unless they're playing Bujin/Geargia where they need to re-establish board presence/engine after an engine card is popped.
 
If I'm playing Shaddolls and have Leo/Midrash on the field, I really hope you go into this, blow your Special and get over Leo. It'll make my job that much easier.

Draco is not "only playable" in Madolche. It puts in an incredible amount of work swinging for game. Countless times at both ACS, Tellarknights used a single copy of Sham to pressure Life totals when the board was a stalemate, then punched for game with Draco when they should not have otherwise won. It also did work in Geargia, sacking wins from nowhere, though overall the pure deck had a weak showing.

I'm not talking about just R4 decks, I'm talking about the relevant metagame as a whole including the R4 decks that are currently making an impact. Tellarknights, Star Seraphs and Geargia are the only relevant "R4" decks in the OCG currently, though they do not use exclusively 2-mat R4s. Geargia will be the only truly relevant TCG R4 deck once we get DUEA, unless we get 86. R4 decks are only relevant in the OCG right now due to Shock Master.

inb4someX-3bashesonmyconstantuseoftheword"relevant"

I've never seen 1 top player say any of that ._.

The 1K is a thing, yes, but Corn still leaves you open to just getting fisted harder. I'm not saying it's bad, just not comparable and not perfect itself.

This... doesn't refute my point and doesn't even feel correct. With playing Shaddolls, I don't care if I lose Midrash. Good? Yes, but it's not the do-all-end-all. And if it's bigger than Leo at that point, you don't even have to kill Leo because Leo becomes a non-issue. If I have a 36 DRXD and they have a Leo and an 11 Rash (hint, 11 is easy to hit over), I'm not threatened by them.

I understand 82 is good there, but that's it. As a whole, the card's just another Nightmare Shark, a mediocre option in a good toolbox. It's not worth running generically. It's only good in decks like Madolche that consistently make the other effect live

This doesn't change the point that R4 as a whole can use this. We haven't seen how it actually plays out in the gamestate due to it only being online for now, but time will tell. And it's not a bad card by any means. If you don't have space for it, sure, but Heartlandraco and Corn do not seem like they're do-all-end-alls above DRXD in any way.

ITT: When your points aren't strong enough, frame the opposing argument as casual and unintelligent instead of using actual evidence

[Ultravires]

 

[redacted]

​

As much as we all hate him, Hoban is the best Ruler player in the game and he's said it multiple times recently; then again he changes his mind every other day. Last week he said Hieratics were absolute garbage and he'd never play the deck again. Jeff and Dale have expressed similar sentiments before, and it's a fairly commonly held belief on EKS and DGz.

Duly noted on Blackship. It does force a play out simply by being 2100 though.

You have to kill Leo. If you pop Midrash I grab Fusion and make a big booty b**** next turn in addition to being able to normal or flip a Falcon and go off further. Drago does put you in a potentially better board position than 101 or Castel would in the same situation, though, if the Drago play over Leo coupled with your backrow and the application of their Midrash's effect manages to stun them for the turn.

 

That sounds about right; can't argue with a non-argument.

That last bit wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and I'm pretty sure I've been providing hard evidence in addition to theorycraft.

[Blake]

​
As much as we all hate him, Hoban is the best Ruler player in the game and he's said it multiple times recently; then again he changes his mind every other day. Last week he said Hieratics were absolute garbage and he'd never play the deck again. Jeff and Dale have expressed similar sentiments before, and it's a fairly commonly held belief on EKS and DGz.

Duly noted on Blackship. It does force a play out simply by being 2100 though.

You have to kill Leo. If you pop Midrash I grab Fusion and make a big booty b**** next turn in addition to being able to normal or flip a Falcon and go off further. Drago does put you in a potentially better board position than 101 or Castel would in the same situation, though, if the Drago play over Leo coupled with your backrow and the application of their Midrash's effect manages to stun them for the turn.
 
That sounds about right; can't argue with a non-argument.

That last bit wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and I'm pretty sure I've been providing hard evidence in addition to theorycraft.

Haven't seen that on DGz, but haven't been following the Ruler thread lately, so that's probably egg on me.

And you do have to kill Leo if you don't have answers for the Fusion, but Midrash is only at 11 then. DRXD is permanent, so she's even smaller than she normally is, and even Ice Hand or any Gadget, for argument's sake more than relevance, can kill her. Just about any deck can then get over Midrash at that point. That said, there is the final issue that she will float, so it's best to wait until you can Dweller or w/e as not to just lose to Shaddoll Fusion immediately. Though I think at this point we're just arguing the same case in this situation in different ways.

Nah, just misread. I didn't see the "some" part, and thought it was an insult tacked on to "bolster" the point that had no real bearing to the conversation at hand.

[Neochu-H]

Dark Rebellion Xyz Dragon= good card

 

time to overuse like exciton knight

[Greiga]

Dark Rebellion Xyz Dragon= good card

time to overuse like exciton knight

Thanks for interrupting a great interaction to repeat what the rest of the thread has been saying.