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God Emperor Cow

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SDB is accepted, yay more peeps.

 

And okay Kyng that would be good, not sure how to work something like this.

I'll happily handle the ranked play if you like ^^

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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-testing-round-1-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles.3525033/

I'd like to throw this in here, if I may. Greninja now suspect tested, after the quickban of Mega Salamence in early ORAS. If this topic is also for discussion, feel free to do so, i'd say.

I could've seen this coming. Protean is such a powerful ability.

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It's functionally almost identical with Genesect, actually. Playstyle, role. and problem-wise.

 

The only difference is that Greninja has less power than download-boosted Genesect and far less bulk with worse defensive typing, but Greninja's mixed sets are generally better, it can hit things on a wider spectrum, and Greninja's far faster than Genesect, bar Scarf gene.

 

Protean's basically a more consistent Download boost for all non-stab moves after all.

 

I really am out of touch of ORAS meta aside from the first few weeks of it though, so yeah. I don't think I can gauge Greninja's impact well enough.

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It's mostly weak to Talonflame priority-wise. Else it is only hurt after it already attacked and changed its type, other than that it resists Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet and Ice Shard. Aerilate Quick Attack is the only other priority (Mega Pinsir) that comes to my mind, other than Talon, but yeah after it attacked it dies to most prios.

 

I would guess Greninja will be banned, it's a sweeper that can break its own walls, and its only true counter right now is Porygon2 which is, as Smogon.com already said, incredibly niche. It's banworthy in my opinion, because it is a huge problem to any playstyle, remains basically uncounterable and can even take advantage of its counters sometimes. (See: Spikes Greninja vs Chansey - You get 2 layers at least if you use it on the switch, if it stays in after it's instant 3 even - But Spikes ninja is more XY so idk if that's still a thing)

 

Edit: Forgot Mach Punch, but only Conk runs that, and Conk is pretty bad right meow.

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I have a feeling that Greninja isn't going to do very well in Ubers, but it is doing too good in OU. Which is the problem. It can't hit quite hard enough to deal with threats in Ubers from what I can tell. So it's tricky.

But it certainly doesn't belong in OU anymore.

 

Also gonna be updating the OP at some point. Adding a spoiler for "Current tournaments" "Past tournaments" "Rankings" and anything else I think should go there.

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I have the first Season's tournament set up. If possible I'd love it if we could have a Bookie to take in bets for the tournament, to add extra spice.

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I have the first Season's tournament set up. If possible I'd love it if we could have a Bookie to take in bets for the tournament, to add extra spice.

Oh nice, that's good. Um....a Bookie you say? I don't know how this would work exactly.

As in other people outside of here make bets? Could be interesting. What would the winner get in that case?

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Oh nice, that's good. Um....a Bookie you say? I don't know how this would work exactly.

As in other people outside of here make bets? Could be interesting. What would the winner get in that case?

The winner of the bet would obviously get the spoils of the bet, whereas the tourney winner will gain points from a prize pool I'll be contributing to.

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If Greninja gets banned to Ubers, I'm quitting Showdown.

(tbf, I also said this about Swagger and Mega Mawile, yet here I am still playing Showdown)

 

People aren't going to learn how to counter threats if we just sequester them away to where only the Pokemon meant to wreck house can deal with them.

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YCM username: I don't have one

Pokemon Showdown username: Bidoofmydoof

Favorite tier: NU

Favorite type: Psychic

 

It would have been cooler if you asked for favorite Pokémon.

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Well Hina, no one has ever accused me of being cool. ^^ And because I'm extra not cool I will just fill in your YCM username as "Hina" for now. XP

But, accepted, nice name. XD Will add to OP in a moment.

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If Greninja gets banned to Ubers, I'm quitting Showdown.

(tbf, I also said this about Swagger and Mega Mawile, yet here I am still playing Showdown)

 

People aren't going to learn how to counter threats if we just sequester them away to where only the Pokemon meant to wreck house can deal with them.

 

You can't actually counter Greninja as a pokemon. That is the problem.

 

All of its check and counters (bar Pory 2+eviolite) is massacred by one of its potential moves. Chansey or fairies? Gunk Shot. Empoleon? Low Kick. Scarf? Good luck switching in without it getting killed or heavily damaged, and Greninja can just leave. You must predict all 4 of its move in teams like Offense or Balanced, otherwise it just walks all over your team since you accidentally sent a "check" or "counter" which turns out being killed by one of its coverage move. You can only counter certain sets, basically. Ferrothorn checks non HP-fire/Low Kick variants, Tentacruel checks non Extrasensory one, etc.

 

Another problem is that in Offense or Balanced team, you are forced to run comparably sub par stuff or stuffs that just hurts the team just to not be massacred by Greninja outright.

 

Next problem is, while every other pokemon has coverage options too, Greninja actually makes them -threatening- immediately. Standard LO greninja hits ridiculously hard for something with 103 SpA, and you don't even have to actually do anything. Just come in safely and start attacking.

 

Then again, why things are banned are completely independent from whether it's adaptable to. If something is too overcentralizing to the meta to the point of influencing teambuilding heavily (Greninja, Aegislash), plain stupid 50/50 that actually works in the user's favor (evasion, Swagger), or just generally able to punch holes in teams too easily (M-Mawile), those could and should be considered as a suspect.

 

If we're talking Yugioh, think of it as why you want certain cards to be hit. It's either because it's a part of an overwhelming/degenerate tier 1 deck, OR is from a completely unfun strategy that's not competitive (things like Exodia Turbo, Final COuntdown, any GIshki deck/hand loop, etc).

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You can't actually counter Greninja as a pokemon. That is the problem.

 

All of its check and counters (bar Pory 2+eviolite) is massacred by one of its potential moves. Chansey or fairies? Gunk Shot. Empoleon? Low Kick. Scarf? Good luck switching in without it getting killed or heavily damaged, and Greninja can just leave. You must predict all 4 of its move in teams like Offense or Balanced, otherwise it just walks all over your team since you accidentally sent a "check" or "counter" which turns out being killed by one of its coverage move. You can only counter certain sets, basically. Ferrothorn checks non HP-fire/Low Kick variants, Tentacruel checks non Extrasensory one, etc.

 

Another problem is that in Offense or Balanced team, you are forced to run comparably sub par stuff or stuffs that just hurts the team just to not be massacred by Greninja outright.

 

Next problem is, while every other pokemon has coverage options too, Greninja actually makes them -threatening- immediately. Standard LO greninja hits ridiculously hard for something with 103 SpA, and you don't even have to actually do anything. Just come in safely and start attacking.

 

Then again, why things are banned are completely independent from whether it's adaptable to. If something is too overcentralizing to the meta to the point of influencing teambuilding heavily (Greninja, Aegislash), plain stupid 50/50 that actually works in the user's favor (evasion, Swagger), or just generally able to punch holes in teams too easily (M-Mawile), those could and should be considered as a suspect.

 

If we're talking Yugioh, think of it as why you want certain cards to be hit. It's either because it's a part of an overwhelming/degenerate tier 1 deck, OR is from a completely unfun strategy that's not competitive (things like Exodia Turbo, Final COuntdown, any GIshki deck/hand loop, etc).

This makes more sense than 95% of the stuff other Smogon players say about tierlists, actually.

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Kay so like, if there's nothing solid figured out by January 1st I will set up a fairly basic tournament just to get something started.

 

I was thinking something a bit different but not too much so. OU but with 1 Uber Pokemon. We'll have to work out a list of Ubers that are totally not allowed though. I was thinking Primal Kyogre and Groudon maybe?

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That works. But hmm, care to explain why it's not? I figure it would mainly be trying to work around the Uber and gain enough advantage to bring it down.

Probably because Mega Blaziken/Lucario exist.

I for one welcome our Mega Mawile overlords.

 

Some of the bans to Ubers were fully justifiable, even other than the above Fighting-types of doom.  Mega Gengar, for one, can be absolutely terrifying if it happens to be a HypnoNightmare set.  If we're going to enable players to have a single Ubers mon each, much caution will have to be taken to avoid the tournament falling into complete disaster because of said Ubers.

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The game can easily devolve into ''counter the opponent Uber or die', which seriously wrecks team designs as we need to check Uber threats using the limited resources of OU or below.

 

Game can easily be decided from team preview, as failing to counter an opposing Uber threat can easily means game.

 

Granted, I might be exaggerating this a bit, but you should get what I'm concerned with.

 

EDIT: Also, seriously. What makes Mega-Gengar powerful and scary (even almost made it kicked from freaking ubers, before MRay is a thing) is its ability to trap and kill anything and perform a shitton of jobs well, given the right set. Basically, you make a team, and slap a MGengar to it to deal with anything your team is weak to.

 

Coupled with ridiculous speed and SpA, that is what makes it threatening.

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Well I can understand, but the idea stemmed from seeing people with mixed tier teams in Ubers doing well, but I can see your point.

Maybe making restrictions to the Uber. Like it can't come out unless at least two of your Pokemon are KOed.

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That would limit teambuilding in unpleasant ways. Say, you wanted to play stall. In that case your uber would be something like Giratina-O or PhDef Yveltal as a common switch-in for various threats, but if you could only use these after several pokemon have fainted, it would nullify their whole use.

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