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[Update/Fixes][Archetype] the "Cherodei" Spellcasters

Cherodei Duel Portal Archetype

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#1
Valkyrus

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Just made my Cherodei public so I thought I might as well post them on here.

Feel free to give constructive c&c if you see any problems  .  


Spells & Traps:


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Once per turn, you can:
* discard 1 Cherodei Monster card: Add 1 Cherodei spell/trap card from your Deck to your hand
* discard 1 Cherodei Spell/Trap card: Add 1 Cherodei monster card from your Deck to your hand
You can activate only 1 "Cherodei Archive" effect per turn and only once that turn.

 

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Excavate the top 3 cards of your Deck and send all "Cherodei" cards to the Graveyard; shuffle the rest into the Deck. Then, if you sent a "Cherodei" Spell/Trap Card to the Graveyard by this effect, you can: Destroy 1 card on the field. You can activate only 1 "Cherodei Explosion" per turn.

 

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Banish 1 face-up "Cherodei" monster you control. During the next Standby Phase: Special Summon the banished monster. You can only activate 1 "Cherodei Teleport Seal" per turn.

 

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Target 1 Spell/Trap card your opponent controls: Destroy it. Then, if you do, you can discard 1 card: Set 1 "Cherodei Sweeper" directly from your Deck. You can activate only 1 "Cherodei Sweeper" per turn.

 

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Send 1 Cherodei Spell/Trap card from your hand to the Graveyard: Negate the activation of a Spell/Trap or a Monster Card Effect and destroy that card. When this card is sent to the Graveyard, except the turn it was activated in, you can: change the battle position of 1 monster your opponent controls.

 

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This card can be activated only if you control no monsters. Special Summon 1 "Cherodei Slayer Token" on your side of the field (Spellcaster-Type/DARK/Level 4/ATK 1800/DEF 1800). As long as you control this face-up card, you can send 1 "Cherodei" Spell/Trap Card from your Deck to the Graveyard to negate the destruction of a "Cherodei Token" you control. If you control non-Token monsters: destroy this card.

 

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Activate this card by targeting 1 "Cherodei" monster in your Graveyard; Special Summon that target. When this card is destroyed, destroy that target. When this card is sent to the Graveyard, except the turn it was activated in, you can: return 1 of your banished "Cherodei" cards to your Graveyard.

 

Main Deck monsters:

 

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Once, while this card is face-up on the field, you can: Move this card to your Spell & Trap Card Zone and treat it as a Continuous Spell Card with the following effect: Special Summon 1 level 4 or lower "Cherodei" monster from your Graveyard. You can use this effect once per turn and only once while this card is face-up in your Spell & Trap Card Zone.

 

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When this card is Summoned, you can: Send 1 face-up Spell or Trap card you control to the Graveyard; Special Summon 1 level 4 or lower "Cherodei" monster from your Deck. Its effects are negated. You can use the effect of "Cherodei Geist" once per turn and only once that turn.
 

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While this card is in your Graveyard, you can activate 1 of the following effects:
* Banish this card; Special Summon 1 "Cherodei" monster from your hand. 
* Send 1 face-up "Cherodei" Spell/Trap card you control to the Graveyard: Special Summon this card. You can activate only 1 "Cherodei Felex" effect per turn and only once that turn.

 

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When this card is Summoned, you can: Send 1 "Cherodei" monster from your Deck to your Graveyard. Once per turn, you can: Target 1 "Cherodei" monster in your Graveyard: Place that target face-up in your Spell&Trap Card Zone and treat it as a Continuous Spell Card.

 

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During your End Phase, if you did not declare an attack this turn, you can tribute this face-up card: Special Summon 1 level 8 Spellcaster-Type monster from your Deck. You can control only 1 "Cherodei Shifter"

 

 

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When this card is Summoned: You can equip up to 2 "Cherodei" Spell/Trap Cards from your Graveyard to this card (the equipped cards' effects are negated). Increase this card's ATK x200 for each card equipped to it by this effect. Once per turn, you can: Return 1 "Cherodei" card equipped to this card to your hand; that card or cards with the same name cannot be activated for the rest of the turn. 

 

 

Extra Deck monsters:

 

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2 level 4 Spellcaster-type monsters
Once per turn, during either player's turn, you can: Detach 1 Xyz Material from this card: Increase this card's ATK by 500 until the End Phase. While you control a face-up Spell or Trap card: This card cannot be destroyed by battle or by card effects.

 

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1 LIGHT Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
When this card is Synchro Summoned: You can add 1 "Cherodei" Spell/Trap Card from your Deck to your hand. Once per turn, during either player's turn, you can negate the activation of a Set Spell/Trap Card and destroy it.

 

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3 level 4 Spellcaster-Type monsters
Once per turn, you can: Detach 1 Xyz Material from this card: inflict 1000 damage to your opponent's LP. This card cannot attack during the turn you activate this effect. While this card is in face-up Defense Position, it is unaffected by other card effects.
 

 

NEW CARDS:

 

I'd really like feedback on those new cards before I upload them on DP

a buff to Tele-Seal:

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a new spell:

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Edited by Valkyrus, 22 April 2015 - 09:05 AM.

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#2
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Teleport seal: Its a quick play pot of greed with a lazy condition on it. If you didn't get to recover the monster during main phase two then it would be perfectly fine.

Tempest: The Icarus attack second option doesn't make sense because the trap is inherently a counter trap which means there is nothing to counter. 

That's about it actually. After facing them a couple of times I realize that what I didn't like was the seemingly ever-present sepia-geist, but that was because they were purely reminiscent of the tellarknights so with that in mind they are fine as a whole. Not sure if magus is worded correctly, but someone better with OCG can be the judge of that.


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#3
Valkyrus

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Teleport seal: Its a quick play pot of greed with a lazy condition on it. If you didn't get to recover the monster during main phase two then it would be perfectly fine.

Tempest: The Icarus attack second option doesn't make sense because the trap is inherently a counter trap which means there is nothing to counter. 

That's about it actually. After facing them a couple of times I realize that what I didn't like was the seemingly ever-present sepia-geist, but that was because they were purely reminiscent of the tellarknights so with that in mind they are fine as a whole. Not sure if magus is worded correctly, but someone better with OCG can be the judge of that.

 

I fixed quite a bit of their effects though. Sepia's SS effect is now a one-shot effect and not a OPT and Geist negates the effect of the SS'd monster (to avoid loops with Sepia).
I made Teleport seal draw 1 instead of 2, but I'll probably make it not draw anything instead.


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#4
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I fixed quite a bit of their effects though. Sepia's SS effect is now a one-shot effect and not a OPT and Geist negates the effect of the SS'd monster (to avoid loops with Sepia).
I made Teleport seal draw 1 instead of 2, but I'll probably make it not draw anything instead.

Just a tip. Maybe try and make a seperate draw card. That way you won't have to worry about such and instead you got a golden Special Summon device

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#5
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The Counter Trap power is strong in this archetype.

 

Not really a fan of Sweeper because it is full of backrow hate; sure, it is more or less balanced with a discard, but in essence it turns any card into a Dust Tornado so you can remove backrow and make safer plays. Also, it is a Counter Trap just "because it can" since it doesn't negate anything and yet gets the Spell Speed 3, and that doesn't look good; I suggest leaving it as a Normal Trap.

 

On the monsters, I didn't like the Sepia -> Geist -> Level 4 "Cherodei" for an easy Rank4/Synchro8, but that is like the standard play of the archetype and removing/nerfing it may leave them helpless. If anything, I suggest to remove Sepia's milling effect so you need at least 1 Cherodei in the grave to start the combo, instead of setting everything up with Sepia alone.

 

Lamia looks more like an Hydra, by the way. Just saying, I think it would be more flavorful if it was named "Hydra" instead.

 

 

Suggested OCG fix on Explosion:

Excavate the top 2 cards of your Deck, send all "Cherodei" cards to the Graveyard, also shuffle the other cards into the Deck, then destroy cards on the field up to the number of "Cherodei" Spell/Trap Cards sent to the Graveyard. You can only activate 1 "Cherodei Explosion" per turn.


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#6
Valkyrus

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Just a tip. Maybe try and make a seperate draw card. That way you won't have to worry about such and instead you got a golden Special Summon device

 

 

The Counter Trap power is strong in this archetype.

 

Not really a fan of Sweeper because it is full of backrow hate; sure, it is more or less balanced with a discard, but in essence it turns any card into a Dust Tornado so you can remove backrow and make safer plays. Also, it is a Counter Trap just "because it can" since it doesn't negate anything and yet gets the Spell Speed 3, and that doesn't look good; I suggest leaving it as a Normal Trap.

 

On the monsters, I didn't like the Sepia -> Geist -> Level 4 "Cherodei" for an easy Rank4/Synchro8, but that is like the standard play of the archetype and removing/nerfing it may leave them helpless. If anything, I suggest to remove Sepia's milling effect so you need at least 1 Cherodei in the grave to start the combo, instead of setting everything up with Sepia alone.

 

Lamia looks more like an Hydra, by the way. Just saying, I think it would be more flavorful if it was named "Hydra" instead.

 

 

Suggested OCG fix on Explosion:

Excavate the top 2 cards of your Deck, send all "Cherodei" cards to the Graveyard, also shuffle the other cards into the Deck, then destroy cards on the field up to the number of "Cherodei" Spell/Trap Cards sent to the Graveyard. You can only activate 1 "Cherodei Explosion" per turn.

 

ok, applied the fixes to sepia and teleport seal in the OP and on DP.
I may add 1 more spell/trap or an extra deck monster but overall I believe this archetype to be mostly done.
I just need to test it some more



 


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#7
Cirrus

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Sweeper makes no sense for me as a Counter Trap, unless you are saying you don't want your opponent to respond to the destruction; then just include the mode of non-response you want (cannot respond with cards or effects period? cannot activate the targeted card?) as part of the text and tune it into a Normal Trap. Otherwise there is nothing it negates - no attack, effect, summon, etc. I also find the other Counter Trap's nonspecific non-targeted double destruction slightly questionable, given that it costs no field presence; although it is a 242 it is extremely flexible and cannot generally be responded to either, and on top of that it also doubles as negation if there is the need. The card would probably be fine if it did one of those things, but a lot of invisible power exists in the ability to choose.

 

Anyway, my 2c, etcetera.



#8
Valkyrus

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Sweeper makes no sense for me as a Counter Trap, unless you are saying you don't want your opponent to respond to the destruction; then just include the mode of non-response you want (cannot respond with cards or effects period? cannot activate the targeted card?) as part of the text and tune it into a Normal Trap. Otherwise there is nothing it negates - no attack, effect, summon, etc. I also find the other Counter Trap's nonspecific non-targeted double destruction slightly questionable, given that it costs no field presence; although it is a 242 it is extremely flexible and cannot generally be responded to either, and on top of that it also doubles as negation if there is the need. The card would probably be fine if it did one of those things, but a lot of invisible power exists in the ability to choose.

 

Anyway, my 2c, etcetera.

 

Ok, I changed Sweeper to be a Normal  Trap and changed Tempest so it only negates (and an extra effect if sent to grave without activation)

 

Made some more minor fixes like giving Geist a hard OPT clause and a LIGHT attribute, making Kanaleto a 3x level 4 mat Xyz, buffing Spellsword a bit and making Scallich


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#9
Darj

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I don't know how the archetype has changed since the last time we played, but I just want to point out that Sepianoza may need a nerf, because it makes pluses so easily, even when teched in other decks and Summoned through "Dark Renewal". I want to admit that I built a Spellcaster deck designed to take advantage from other player's cards and engines, and Dark Renewal --> Sepianoza is indeed a strong combo that can generate a couple of pluses if the opponent doesn't get rid of it early.


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#10
Valkyrus

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I don't know how the archetype has changed since the last time we played, but I just want to point out that Sepianoza may need a nerf, because it makes pluses so easily, even when teched in other decks and Summoned through "Dark Renewal". I want to admit that I built a Spellcaster deck designed to take advantage from other player's cards and engines, and Dark Renewal --> Sepianoza is indeed a strong combo that can generate a couple of pluses if the opponent doesn't get rid of it early.

What do you suggest I fix? Should I make the bounce a "once while face-up" instead of a once per turn? Or equip just 1 card..though that would be kind of useless.

Also, pretty much nothing's changed except slight nerfs and completely remaking Kanaleto.


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#11
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What do you suggest I fix? Should I make the bounce a "once while face-up" instead of a once per turn? Or equip just 1 card..though that would be kind of useless.

Also, pretty much nothing's changed except slight nerfs and completely remaking Kanaleto.

You could also give Sepianoza a "Cannot be Special Summoned from the Deck" clause like the Timelords to solve the Dark Renewal combo


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#12
Valkyrus

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You could also give Sepianoza a "Cannot be Special Summoned from the Deck" clause like the Timelords to solve the Dark Renewal combo

I don't see how that is a problem? Sure, Dark Renewal makes it easier to access her, but the danger comes from her making pluses over time, not on summon.

 

So, I suggest this fix:
When this card is Summoned: You can equip any number of Spell & Trap Cards from your Graveyard to this card (the equipped cards' effects are negated). Increase this card's ATK x100 for each card equipped to it. Once, while this card is face-up on your side of the field, you can return 1 card equipped to this card to your hand; cards with the same name cannot be activated the same turn you use this effect.


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#13
Valkyrus

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EDIT: Added a new card: Cherodei Reanimation and fixed Cherodei Explosion


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#14
Cirrus

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Proposed nerfs:

 

Magus needs to have its ability to negate the activation of a Set not be a strict +1 (and thus almost Shi En-like). I would test it with setting the card facedown but ideally remove that ability altogether and have it be something more reasonable (like an ignition effect that does something else).

 

Sweeper needs to have actual counterplay. Its concept is cute but it is literally Hitler by being better than Dust Tornado in 90% of cases. This should not stand. I propose 1: targeting and 2: having the discard to fetch option only available if it killed a facedown. Yes, that means it won't trigger when it hits a face-up.

 

Reanimation is uncool by being uncounterable Call of the Haunted. Please make it have the interlinked destruction clause.



#15
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Proposed nerfs:

 

Magus needs to have its ability to negate the activation of a Set not be a strict +1 (and thus almost Shi En-like). I would test it with setting the card facedown but ideally remove that ability altogether and have it be something more reasonable (like an ignition effect that does something else).

 

Sweeper needs to have actual counterplay. Its concept is cute but it is literally Hitler by being better than Dust Tornado in 90% of cases. This should not stand. I propose 1: targeting and 2: having the discard to fetch option only available if it killed a facedown. Yes, that means it won't trigger when it hits a face-up.

 

Reanimation is uncool by being uncounterable Call of the Haunted. Please make it have the interlinked destruction clause.

 

I really don't get what you're suggesting for Magus. Negating a Set S/T isn't a +1 unless you try to bait the negation. It's really pretty much a OPT Barkion with an archetype-Specific buff. (and both Barkion and Shi-En aren't exactly meta-relevant anyway).

For Sweeper, I can add targeting, yeah, but I don't see how comparing it to a real card that no one plays means anything.

 

and for reanimation, really? If I add the destruction clause it just becomes CoTH, which would make no sense other than being searchable/recyclable within the archetype. Compare to Geargiagear/Sanctum, not so bad now is it?

 

There seriously needs to be a powerlevel set for DP that we need to follow otherwise no one knows what our decks are being compared to. But if it's TCG I am sure Nekroz/Qlips/BAs/Yosenju can beat Cherodei no problem. So really, why is there a need for nerfs here exactly? What combination/play here is so strong and unfair that it needs to be changed?

I wasn't even in the Top 5 of the 11 participants last tournament and I played pretty much an optimal build of the deck. So really, give me the exact reason why I NEED to nerf Magus?

(though if others back you up with good arguments I'll have no choice but to change them of course.)


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#16
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I completely disagree regarding your build last tournament having been the optimal build of the deck. Felex is a mediocre/bad card and a lot of the engine's power is frontloaded into the Sepia-Geist combo (I would only run 3 Sepia, 3 Geist, 2-3 Scarlich, and 1-2 Sepianoza; 0 Felex). As I am sure you have no desire to nerf this combo, you need to at least consider the impact that your other support has on this combo. The suggested nerfs are precisely because people are having problems playing against Cherodei (as noted in the feedback in the DP general chat), and rather than touching the ability of your combo to primarily function, I am touching power elsewhere. Magus is indeed an OPT Barkion with an archetype-specific buff ... but Barkion is itself fantastic, and Magus notably has 2800 ATK. The "archetype-specific buff" isn't anything small, either - it can make another level 8 Synchro!

 

Firstly, I disagree about Dust Tornado being a bad card. It regularly shows up in the side deck of OCG decks, happening as recently as this month (but it's always happened). Sweeper (1) doesn't target and (2) fetches a copy of itself at your prerogative, making it leaps and bounds better than Dust Tornado. The proposed nerfs to Sweeper will not impact its ability to clear facedowns nor your ability to clear cards in the majority of the cases, but offers a small element of thought as your opponent may opt to chain the card and deny you the search (even if it would die anyway, like Fiendish Chain). In that case it still trades 1-for-1, which is fine.

 

Geargia and Artifacts don't have the power combo named Sepia-Geist. Instead, Sanctum and Geargiagear ARE their power card. See my first paragraph about touching the power level of Sepia-Geist (though of course if you'd like to, I'd be happy with doing that instead!). Yes, it's still better than CotH for your deck precisely because it's searchable and serves to continue your combo as well as doing something alongside Explosion. I am adding counterplay and reducing unnecessary power, not completely neutering your card.



#17
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The suggested nerfs are precisely because people are having problems playing against Cherodei (as noted in the feedback in the DP general chat)

 

What problems exactly? The only one playing Cherodei is me and now Avaren for the current tournament. Also, no nerfs were suggested by the judges before the last tournament. And I've played the deck on DP for 2 months. And this thread exists. If someone has a problem, shouldn't they come here and name it? (namely the people on DP whose feedback you're referencing)

Anyway, I said I'll fix Sweeper, I never intended it to be non-targetable. And reanimation right now works in the same way CoTH does in Satellarknights. 
Coth> Altair > Deneb 
Reanimation> Geist > Felex/Scallich etc. OR Reanimation > Sepia > Geist > Felex. (remember Geist and Sepia are hard OPT so the reanimation play will be the only sepia-geist play you do during that turn.)
They both achieve the same thing, more or less, just with Reanimation not being as affected by MST.
I can nerf it, I just want to make sure there is an actual need for it. 

And btw, I disagree on Felex. There is no better target for Geist to SS and it doubles as a means to SS Sepianoza from hand.

It's been quite useful in most of my games.
Also, out of curiousity, can you make a build of this deck that can beat the top tier DP archetypes consistently? If yes, I'd like to see it. If not, then, well, I guess no nerfs are needed after all.
 

And again, I ask, why should Magus be nerfed and how (since I didn't understand what you suggested at all)? (it's the one card I really don't think needs any nerfing.





 


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#18
Cirrus

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I thought that Magus was the problem card in Cherodei as a rule (the other cards are not significantly out of line), because the difference between Gear Gigant X / Kingremlin / Tiger King and Magus is that Magus actually does something while searching for another combo piece while having 500 more ATK (and is thus measurably harder to take out as well as being more valuable). We had a semi-brief discussion on this in either the March Banlist thread or the tournament thread, I'm not sure; but not here, and that was the conclusion drawn (?). People are lazy and I was delegated to active nerf squad duty, so that's why I'm here now instead of earlier - but you can look at the chat logs for the DP Skype chat for -why- precisely I'm here (and no one else).

 

Quite so! Reanimation does do the same thing that Altair -> Deneb does in Tellarknight. But the fundamental difference is that ... Call of the Haunted isn't searchable. And Reanimation is still better than Call of the Haunted as a result. Now, I know you're going to say that you can Altair -> Deneb in the End Phase and get an additional play, and that's true, but you can also reanimate a level 8 without any drawbacks ... at least currently (and Tellarknights don't have any similar play).

 

The reason I proposed nerfing Sweeper was precisely because I didn't like how it outclassed Dust Tornado. It's not nearly as bad now that it targets, however.

 

I will take you up on your proposition and make as optimal of a Cherodei deck as I can muster.



#19
Valkyrus

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I thought that Magus was the problem card in Cherodei as a rule (the other cards are not significantly out of line), because the difference between Gear Gigant X / Kingremlin / Tiger King and Magus is that Magus actually does something while searching for another combo piece while having 500 more ATK (and is thus measurably harder to take out as well as being more valuable). We had a semi-brief discussion on this in either the March Banlist thread or the tournament thread, I'm not sure; but not here, and that was the conclusion drawn (?). People are lazy and I was delegated to active nerf squad duty, so that's why I'm here now instead of earlier - but you can look at the chat logs for the DP Skype chat for -why- precisely I'm here (and no one else).

 

Quite so! Reanimation does do the same thing that Altair -> Deneb does in Tellarknight. But the fundamental difference is that ... Call of the Haunted isn't searchable. And Reanimation is still better than Call of the Haunted as a result. Now, I know you're going to say that you can Altair -> Deneb in the End Phase and get an additional play, and that's true, but you can also reanimate a level 8 without any drawbacks ... at least currently (and Tellarknights don't have any similar play).

 

The reason I proposed nerfing Sweeper was precisely because I didn't like how it outclassed Dust Tornado. It's not nearly as bad now that it targets, however.

 

I will take you up on your proposition and make as optimal of a Cherodei deck as I can muster.

 

I don't know why you're comparing Magus to Gigant/Kingremlin, those aren't boss monsters. It's more similar to Evilswarm Ophion as it's a searcher + a mini-floodgate of sorts that only stops certain decks (backrow heavy/stun decks for Magus).

Also, were the judges from the previous tournament in that discussion? And if so, what was their opinion on it ? (since apparently they had a different opinion just before the tournament as I wasn't told to nerf anything (5 judges had access to my decklist). How is it that just recently Magus became a huge problem even after I didn't even do that well in the tournament? I played dozens of games against Voltex before it as well. Sure, Magus can be annoying but so is Ophion, what a surprise. The list of existing annoying cards goes on.


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#20
Cirrus

Cirrus

    dreaming a transient dream.

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It was after the tournament actually, and Voltex came up with that conclusion, not me. Go check out the thread; I wasn't part of the judge squad before this tournament.

 

The difference between Ophion and Magus, at least imo, is that (1) it generally costs 2 cards to make Ophion while it only usually takes 1 (albeit a specific one, but it's recyclable) for Magus, and (2) it can make another one of itself (Magus -> Reanimation). Magus wouldn't be nearly as annoying if it couldn't make another copy of itself, and would honestly be just a little bit better than decent (but of course it would still be a fine card). But it cannot be allowed to be as good as a boss monster (and it's currently not, but it's definitely better than your average floaty monster) because it can make another copy of itself. Ophion to Magus is also not a comparison either of us wants to make, as Ophion singlehandedly shut games down during its prime; it's a bit more than just annoying.

 

Also, to be clear, I don't mind slight compensation buffs given elsewhere. I'm just pointing out the existing flaws in the system.






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