Fixing the game

[Cosmo.]

I don't understand what is meant by skill.... You just need to play the best deck and be lucky to win in the metagame. So please define skill for me

[Zauls]

I don't understand what is meant by skill.... You just need to play the best deck and be lucky to win in the metagame. So please define skill for me

 

 

A lot of meta decks these days are very combo-oriented and more often than not you'll find yourself with a hell of a lot of different options and combos. Deciding which is best at that particular point in time is very difficult to do and it requires a lot of practice, good reading of the current game-state and good knowledge of the game in general. If that isn't skill, I don't know what is.

 

The argument for "just play the best deck and win" is ridiculous. At any event above a locals, there will be other people playing the best deck(s), so what happens when you come against them? And even if there aren't any other Nekroz players at an event, you're still not any more likely than anyone else to win the event as the lone Nekroz players, unless you are a very skilled player.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

ah autoscorrect- i meant to say scumbaglol. i don't say that the meta is scrubby- shads do take knowledge of exactly hat play to make for a situation..but the meta is full of salty asses who either play solitaire or use whatever move you have against you. for example- necroz search and search then kill you- whir yosenjus drop the secret move whenever the damn hell they please.

 

So, they aren't allowed to have strong offensive plays... and they aren't allowed to have strong defensive plays...

 

I think you are just upset that their decks are good.

[ihop]

Skillful decks tend to be decks that are proactive as well as reactive because that way you need to find the best way to win as well as the best way to stop your opponent. A deck like Yosenju or Evilswarm is a lot less skillful because offensive plays make themselves.

[Cosmo.]

A lot of meta decks these days are very combo-oriented and more often than not you'll find yourself with a hell of a lot of different options and combos. Deciding which is best at that particular point in time is very difficult to do and it requires a lot of practice, good reading of the current game-state and good knowledge of the game in general. If that isn't skill, I don't know what is.

 

The argument for "just play the best deck and win" is ridiculous. At any event above a locals, there will be other people playing the best deck(s), so what happens when you come against them? And even if there aren't any other Nekroz players at an event, you're still not any more likely than anyone else to win the event as the lone Nekroz players, unless you are a very skilled player.

Thanks for the definition, i didn't mean my statement as offensive, it's just that for me, that i have 0 direct contact with the meta game i just know that a lot of decks can be linear (Bujins a few formats ago)

[Zauls]

Thanks for the definition, i didn't mean my statement as offensive, it's just that for me, that i have 0 direct contact with the meta game i just know that a lot of decks can be linear (Bujins a few formats ago)

 

No offense taken, just imparting my knowledge ^_^

 

You're right in saying a lot of meta decks have been linear and some have required little skill. I'd say the current meta is one of the most skilled in recent times.

[chaoticjexak]

(bujins aren't really that linear though- not as linear as necroz) @zauls- explain necroz then. i agree that shads require skill though- but satellelars, BA and qli are NO SKILL- BA in particular with the upcoming fusion

[Cosmo.]

(bujins aren't really that linear though- not as linear as necroz) @zauls- explain necroz then. i agree that shads require skill though- but satellelars, BA and qli are NO SKILL- BA in particular with the upcoming fusion

Bujins basically were: 1) Summon Yamato -> 2) Get Plusses -> 3) Defend Yamato with shiny animals -> 4)????? -> 5) Win

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

(bujins aren't really that linear though- not as linear as necroz) @zauls- explain necroz then. i agree that shads require skill though- but satellelars, BA and qli are NO SKILL- BA in particular with the upcoming fusion

 

Bujins basically were: 1) Summon Yamato -> 2) Get Plusses -> 3) Defend Yamato with shiny animals -> 4)????? -> 5) Win

 

I know You asked for Zauls, but I think Cosmo and I have got this~

 

I will cover Nekroz. Through a combination of Valkyrus being used to disable Shaddoll Fusion, Trishula to make power plays, and the entire bit involving Djinn lock, Nekroz are a versatile deck, playing at several different angles. 

[chaoticjexak]

Bujins basically were: 1) Summon Yamato -> 2) Get Plusses -> 3) Defend Yamato with shiny animals -> 4)????? -> 5) Win

 

thats a dumbed down version- its not the fact you protect your burin that matters- its HOW you protect it. sure you could drop hare to stop him or another burin from being destroyed- but what if your opponent plays com pulse? or Banishes it? boom! gone- burin deck flops like a fish. or what if your opponent is playing BB's? no point in dropping turtle there- you go for cranes and sinyous. plus monsters never last more than a turn or so even so-becuase Light imprisoning mirror is a thing, mind drain is a thing- and burins shouldn't have ya out too long. usually i xyz with him.

 

I know You asked for Zauls, but I think Cosmo and I have got this~

 

I will cover Nekroz. Through a combination of Valkyrus being used to disable Shaddoll Fusion, Trishula to make power plays, and the entire bit involving Djinn lock, Nekroz are a versatile deck, playing at several different angles. 

which is why they are no skill decks- purely due to their massive search ability. 'oh ill just search this and shut down you entire deck'

[Cosmo.]

which is why they are no skill decks- purely due to their massive search ability. 'oh ill just search this and shut down you entire deck'

Here, look at this quote from A  FEW POSTS AGO

A lot of meta decks these days are very combo-oriented and more often than not you'll find yourself with a hell of a lot of different options and combos. Deciding which is best at that particular point in time is very difficult to do and it requires a lot of practice, good reading of the current game-state and good knowledge of the game in general. If that isn't skill, I don't know what is.

Searching doesn't mean no skill, for example i play decks such as Ghostricks, which even though they're trolly af and have search power beyond the stars and back, they require you to know what you're doing just like these meta decks, if you don't know what you're doing with ANY DECK, YOU'LL LOSE.

[chaoticjexak]

 

ghostricks do seach a lot- but they ack physical power- and can be very easily shut down with stuff light light of intervention though. the reason why the meta is..well mta- is because often there went a slew of options that shut them down. that why burins didn't last long because people started to side light imprisoning- and burins didn't run mst often  because centipede.

 

[J-Max]

 

Here, look at this quote from A  FEW POSTS AGO

Searching doesn't mean no skill, for example i play decks such as Ghostricks, which even though they're trolly af and have search power beyond the stars and back, they require you to know what you're doing just like these meta decks, if you don't know what you're doing with ANY DECK, YOU'LL LOSE.

 

I can't Like this enough. Exactly what I have been thinking. Anyone could run say a Madolche Deck but if they don't know the workings of it, all they are going to see is their monsters going back to their Deck and they have nothing.

 

Mew & Messengelato. Anjelly into Hootcake into another Madolche. If players do not know these Combos then they will fail. People can play the most Meta Deck possible but they will be fucked if all they are doing is Netdecking.

[chaoticjexak]

I can't Like this enough. Exactly what I have been thinking. Anyone could run say a Madolche Deck but if they don't know the workings of it, all they are going to see is their monsters going back to their Deck and they have nothing.

 

Mew & Messengelato. Anjelly into Hootcake into another Madolche. If players do not know these Combos then they will fail. People can play the most Meta Deck possible but they will be f***ed if all they are doing is Netdecking.

but once you look up the combos and implement them you instantly climb the ladder. i firmly believe the best decks are those with no linear combo for a particular deck. no- djinn lockdown vs shadolls. moreover go back to how yugioh used to be- overpower the opponent by building up your feild- not shutting down your opponents.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

It is clear he isn't going to change his opinions, so arguing the point isn't going to do anything, no matter how right we are.

[J-Max]

but once you look up the combos and implement them you instantly climb the ladder. i firmly believe the best decks are those with no linear combo for a particular deck. no- djinn lockdown vs shadolls. moreover go back to how yugioh used to be- overpower the opponent by building up your feild- not shutting down your opponents.

You mean the days of Vanilla Beatdown? I don't want those days back. Sure Normal Decks are cute but we have evolved far beyond that now.

 

Also nothing wrong with a linear Combo. If you draw into Anjelly, you are pretty much Set for Tiaramisu.

 

And thanks for stating the obvious lol. Learning the Combos indeed helps you climb the ladder as you put it. You want to learn the Decks inner workings after all.

[chaoticjexak]

It is clear he isn't going to change his opinions, so arguing the point isn't going to do anything, no matter how right we are.

im not saying your wrong- meta vs meta requires maybe a smidgen of kill- but I'm talking about mat vs non/old meta- every meta is no skill against everything else because theres more search- less negation. the next format that domes will see shads plummet- and the next after that will see those decks in turn fall- and the game plunges deeper into the abyss intul regular trish no longer seems oP.

You mean the days of Vanilla Beatdown? I don't want those days back. Sure Normal Decks are cute but we have evolved far beyond that now.

 

Also nothing wrong with a linear Combo. If you draw into Anjelly, you are pretty much Set for Tiaramisu.

 

And thanks for stating the obvious lol. Learning the Combos indeed helps you climb the ladder as you put it. You want to learn the Decks inner workings after all.

no I'm talking synchro era. think about it- goto- colossal fighter- all battle based- not really any 'shut down' the big exemption would've been quazar- but he didn't hit tGC till recently..

 

second- a linear combo is…boring..simply put. no offence- just my view

 

third- youtube makes learning way too easy is my point. decks with simple spammable combos can be picked up so easy. but skill-is playing non-meta and making it work. 

[Trebuchet MS]

...which is why they are no skill decks- purely due to their massive search ability. 'oh ill just search this and shut down you entire deck'

By that line of logic, Bujins with almost equivalent search ability is equally no-skill.

[Cosmo.]

So in my opinion the only thing that needs to be fixed is the tournaments. You get divided into two sections, one for any deck except meta decks and the other for meta decks, so everyone can enjoy their favourite deck with actually fair match-ups

I made this post sometime ago........

[chaoticjexak]

i agree with flawless on this- but i also think there should be a 'soft' banilist outside of tourneys- one that docent need to be followed- but is recommended for a fairer  game per tier.

 

and burins being no skill- i agree completely! i just find them fun- which is ine. I'm not gonna hate on a necroz player if they genuinely like playing necroz. but ill still be salty :P

[J-Max]

 

second- a linear combo is…boring..simply put. no offence- just my view

You are entitled to your opinion but I feel like all Decks need some Combos to go by. Not the 20 move Combos that some Decks have but the more managable 5-7. Without those Combo's the speed of the Game would slow down a lot but on the flip side, it would encourage people to actually use their Normal Summon wisely and the like.

 

Sorry to bring up Madolche again but some of the Combos are the only real way to swarm them. Mewfuelle + another Madolche is the only part of the whole Archetype that is not a Combo as such.

[chaoticjexak]

You are entitled to your opinion but I feel like all Decks need some Combos to go by. Not the 20 move Combos that some Decks have but the more managable 5-7. Without those Combo's the speed of the Game would slow down a lot but on the flip side, it would encourage people to actually use their Normal Summon wisely and the like.

 

Sorry to bring up Madolche again but some of the Combos are the only real way to swarm them. Mewfuelle + another Madolche is the only part of the whole Archetype that is not a Combo as such.

this is true-its like classic synchro combos with junk synchron and quillbolt- and don't worry- i love madolche (they are so cool`)

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

You know how we can fix the game?

 

Signing a petition against the release of Norden in the TCG.

[Sleepy]

Ugh 3 pages is a lot to read.

I'm barely starting page 2 but I'm just gonna get this out of the way:

The game is not solitaire. Some people are stuck on the feeling they got with Frog FTK and Synchro Fish from back in the 5Ds era.

The game is the most interactive it has been in a long time. Burning Abyss, Ritual Beasts, and other decks have ways to fall back when they are being interrupted, either by having Dante's materials float into a different play and not let you in top-deck mode, or by Fusions contacting out of the way for defensive purposes.

If you are falling behind so much that you can never push them back even a little, that simply means you are not playing a deck that is competently build enough to withstand the game, even though in this day and age you have a lot of options to choose from to make something that is decent. 

 

In fact, I often give a good fight even with decks that aren't even in the map like Zombies. Granted, they can't be "random crap" and have to take the potential opponents into deep consideration, but still. The game has options, variety and is overall in good shape. Sure there are broken cards here and there that could go away and the format would be better, but compared to what we've had in past ages, we aren't really all that badly placed.

 

Really for what it is, I'm impressed with how much you can think a play nowadays. It means there are pros and cons in choices to make, and means to acquire said choices, rather than just having a linear go-to play that'll work all the time.... At least for the most part. I mean, yes there are typical plays in archetypes, but because the opponents can typically react on the spot by floating or with Traps, it is not gonna be completely mindless. That's what happens in competitive scenes as far as I've seen.

 

 

Casual has a lot of charm and is what I play the vast majority of the time I play, but come on. Mokey Mokey won't beat Nekroz a good amount of the time, and that doesn't mean the meta sucks.

 

 

 

PD: Oh and the above comment xD

[VCR_CAT]

I agree with Sleepy. If you take a look back at past metas, you'll realize that the recent metagames have been some of the most diverse and varied. Just take a look at the OCG decklists; sure Nekroz are topping a lot, but there's quite a bit of variety to be had in what's winning. But I mean, let me get something else straight.

From the viewpoint of a purely casual player, the meta can look very broken and not fun to play when it's only one or two decks. Casual players want variety and the ability to  win with their deck of choice.

But then, from the viewpoint of a competitive player, a diverse meta is far from ideal. Competitive players WANT the tier-0 metas; it makes side-decking a very easy job; it ensures that you're less likely to lose because you just so happened to be matched up against a deck you're not good against; and it makes the tournament more about skill with the mirror-matches than about who got the best matchups.

The problem here is that finding "The perfect balance" is very hard. A tier 0 meta is hard for the casual players because it means they can't run what they want to run, and it also makes the tournaments impossible for a lot of players to enter because they don't have the money for the big cards. But a varied meta is also bad for the competitive players because it makes side-decking a very, very difficult job and leaves a lot of wins-and-losses up to who they happened to be matched up against deck-wise.

What I see Konami trying to do is make more of a controlled meta-game; make a few really good decks meant for tournament play so that the tournament players can expect what they're going to see, but varied enough that there's a variety in what a player can choose for what they want to play. The only thing that needs to be "fixed" for the game really is to avoid super-power cards that hurt player interactivity and leave the game's outcome up to how lucky a player is in their draws such as Vanity's Emptiness.

But there's also something else I need to point out. The advent of free online-sims changes what players want. A lot of the time, players complain about the game being broken because they'll play against a lot of rando's and lose against the reigning meta-game. As I explained above, there ARE downsides to having a variety in the meta-game to be aware of. I like what Konami is doing in working towards a balance in the meta-game and a more controlled environment. But there's something else you need to consider: Konami doesn't need to consider your needs as a casual player when designing the competitive scene.

Let me explain: If you're not entering a tournament, or you have no plans to enter any tournaments, then you basically have no right to complain about the competitive scene. Play with your friends and play what you want; nobody's forcing you to play in a competitive-mindset with casual intents. I, personally, play in the scene of players with competitive mindset not because I have near-future plans of entering a tournament (Konami needs to give me my Trains >:( ) but because I enjoy the challenge of the stronger decks, but I also know what I'm getting myself into. If you're just a casual player, you don't really have much ground to complain about what's broken or not because the gamestate isn't affecting your performance in tournaments; it's only affecting your performance against random people in meaningless situations. Competitive players can't pick and choose who they play against, but casual players can. So if you think the game's broken and unfair, then just play with your friends where you're guaranteed to have more fun by default regardless of the state of the meta game.

Konami's doing their best to find a good middle ground for the meta-game based on what cards a currently being released, but if you're just a casual player you have the choice on who you play against, what you play against, and what banlist you play against. The banlist is supposed to help the controlled meta game, NOT to help a controlled casual game. So if you don't like the current meta-game and you're not going into a tournament, then don't PLAY the current meta game.

The only parts of this meta I do not enjoy are Volcanics and Djinn-Lock; but really, since I'm not entering tournaments, I don't HAVE to play against those, which is why I don't actively complain about them really.