f*** it. This thread has needed to happen for a long time.

[evilfusion]

Well, it looks like I may actually need to rewrite the ancient TCG rules that I've successfully forgotten about needing to do for several months.

[玄魔の王]

I feel I should apologise to anyone up front who feels I was contributing to the downward spiral: truth be told, I'm really terrible at expressing what I mean and get frustrated if I'm not being understood.

 

@tags: they do not show up on the mobile version of the site so anybody who regularly uses that cannot see them

@buzzwords: as somebody else said, the devil is in the details. If all somebody says is the word then sure, but if somebody can explain their reasoning that shouldn't really be spam.

 

I get the sense people at least a few people want the OP to set the topic and have everybody only discuss that. The problem there is it leads to very short threads, which don't generate much discussion.

 

I also get the feeling some people want cards to be discussed only for their current impact on the meta, which has the same problem. Speculation is wildly inaccurate but at least it gets people to think.

[Darj]

I'm going to jump in and, if section changes will be done, appeal for a space for "Theory-Oh" in the forums, specifically "ITT" or similar threads in which the OP wants to discuss the hypothetical impact of X card if it was different in one way or another (less restrictions, improved effect, etc.). I understand that some users are not really a fan of this because, no matter what scenarios we bring up, in the end it's all up to Konami and whatever it's concluded may never become a reality, turning the whole discussion pointless... or so it seems; in my opinion it's not entirely pointless, because one is still analysing the suggested scenario, and that sometimes leads to learning or teaching a thing or two about the game. Also, while some may not care about Theory-Oh, others do (for whatever reason: fun, for the sake of thinking, etc.), and I feel the latter shouldn't be neglected.

 

In addition, knowledge generated from these Theory-Oh scenarios or threads may be helpful for card makers (at the very least, as examples of "what to do" and "what not to do"); and you know, this is a YGO card making forum.

 

In short, I believe having a space for Theory-Oh should be of interest to the site.

And with "a space", I mean from allowing the use of, let's say, [Theory-Oh] or [iTT] tags, to going as far as dedicating a subsection to these threads.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

 

 

On YCM, if you have a different opinion than the above poster, it's considered wrong and hateful and stupid and that person is immediately shunned for THE lamest of excuses.

 

I rest my case.

 

In any event, the only real thing here that can actually be done to "fix" the section is to just stop with the hateful, spiteful, douchebaggery attitude. Has it never occured to someone that if they are at a different skill level than you, it might be because of several reasons other than "you're bad at the game"? It feels like to me, that whenever someone, anyone, posts something in TCG anymore, it's always about how it can go in a COMPETITIVE state. What happened to all ends of the spectrum? And when those sides of the spectrum eventually do meet, it's filled with jargon about how "I'm better than you" yada yada yada.

 

I'll try to phrase this delicately since we ARE talking about the potential fix this section can get:

 

Stop flaming. Stop shouting. Stop being all that. Stop being elitist. Think about someone else's opinion and if you don't agree with it, have an intellectual conversation about it instead of knocking head around. For example, if A CASUAL PLAYER says "X card is broken", it might be a better idea to actually refute their argument and tell him how they are wrong or how they are right. If they are not willing to change their view on their opinion, LET IT funking GO. If they don't want to change their viewpoint on a card, tossing insults and throwing them around at people like everyone is in a funking blender isn't going to solve anything. In fact, it pushes them away from that spectrum and eventually they just give up on the game.

 

I've been around for a long while, and I know TCG has always been the most elitist place. But the only real "fix" that we can do to the section starts with the people inhabiting said section. If the people fix themselves, the section fixes itself.

 

Simple as that.

[heraldry_lord]

Pojo was the first YGO forum I've visited, so I'm used to flaming, ****posts and buzzwords in practically every thread. 

 

That being said, if this thread helps this forum and its users improve, then I fully support it.

[Neutrality Man]

Full Support. I'm a purely casual player, to the point I actually swore off playing human beings online and only really play against PercyPro's AI or in the old DS games anymore, and the majority of the fun for me in this game is facing a variety of decks, and not just the current 3-decks-meta format. Looking at the metagame just makes me vomit in any game, but especially here in Yu-Gi-Oh! where now if you don't have $1000 to blow every 4 months, you can't even play.

 

I've been around and playing this game since it debuted: back when Normal Monsters were a common sight and the lower left corner of the field was still called the Fusion Deck. I come to this section now and then to see what's being discussed, but when I actually open a thread, it usually fills me with disgust to see all the bile and horseshit spewing left and right just because a card from Legend of Blue-Eyes is being compared to something from Next Challengers by the "competitive" players. All that effort calling a card useless can be much better spent developing combos to MAKE the card "meta". If you need an example of how that works,I actually took a Neo-Spacians deck and used new cards (Blazeman, Crystal Vanguard, and Crystal Defender) to put it on a level to face Qli, Nekroz, and Shaddollsworn and come out winning 2/3 of the time.

 

Some users may bring up instances of me using the caustic vocabulary ruining this sector myself (Bad design, game health, cancer, toxic, etc.) but I can assure you my reason for doing so is because I feel like speaking in their language is the only way to get the idiots to even read your post. Something needs done, and soon.

[- Minimania -]

As one of those "1 member a year who sticks around" members, I agree with you completely. I'm sick of seeing those attacking threads, and I would much rather hold a casual conversation about the uses of some cards with you guys. I don't know if people will agree with me about the fact that I would rather not have a combo topic become a "this combo is funking terrible, why even post it" kind of post, because seriously, you're not even helping the topic. "It's too inconsistent/These things can't be searched/It's too situational" **** THAT DID I ASK YOU?

 

Actually, by now most of the people here should know the cons of what they're playing

[King K. Azo]

I'm relatively new, and I'm not all into the meta.

 

But I swore off posting anything here, except for a few thing that catch my eye so much that I have to comment. Because every time I comment, I get responses like

"Oh, it's not meta, so it's stupid, and a waste of time to talk about. You're stupid for liking these cards." I got into it a few times before I realized, yes, it's not meta, and I could never get them to see what's possible, only what has been done. So, I stopped.

But I don't like that. I like to be excited an archetype got new support and what can we do with this support. I like bouncing off people and coming up with new ideas and having fun with it. I like that my archetype didn't get hit on the banlist.

 

But this section does not allow such conversations. It's meta or nothing. And it's not helping to bring in new people, new ideas, and new views.

[ihop]

I'm relatively new, and I'm not all into the meta.

 

But I swore off posting anything here, except for a few thing that catch my eye so much that I have to comment. Because every time I comment, I get responses like

"Oh, it's not meta, so it's stupid, and a waste of time to talk about. You're stupid for liking these cards." I got into it a few times before I realized, yes, it's not meta, and I could never get them to see what's possible, only what has been done. So, I stopped.

But I don't like that. I like to be excited an archetype got new support and what can we do with this support. I like bouncing off people and coming up with new ideas and having fun with it. I like that my archetype didn't get hit on the banlist.

 

But this section does not allow such conversations. It's meta or nothing. And it's not helping to bring in new people, new ideas, and new views.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to you if you hadn't just told Synchronised to "prepare for backlash" in the meta thread.

 

Come on guys, preempting it is just going to make it more likely.

[King K. Azo]

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to you if you hadn't just told Synchronised to "prepare for backlash" in the meta thread.

Come on guys, preempting it is just going to make it more likely.

I told him because it's what happened last time someone questioned it.

That's all.

Granted, I was and still kinda am bitter. I went in just all happy and boom! Hurricane shitstorm.

Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have said that though.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but all the salt accusations are a waste of time. Yes, buzzwords can be considered spam, but am image of a pile of salt is literal spam.

 

And of course, full support.

[Aerion Brightflame]

So I don't post in this section... at all really anymore, but I feel like I should at least put my two cents in, because it's not something I need to be knowledgeable about the game to comment on;

 

The biggest problem with the section is the attitude of the posters.

 

Like, you can criticize threads discussing design, as not really making discussions with a major point, and that they've probably become buzzwords, but neither of those are reasons for so many threads escalating for no good reason.  Like for every example of a thread that blows up from a design discussion, you can probably find ones that are very constructive discussions. It's entirely possible, like Black's made more than a few. Discussing design doesn't make a thread pointless either, they can be equally thought provoking. But that's a different issue that I'm not really in a place to discuss anymore, since as I've said my game knowledge is awful. 

 

So if it's not the content itself that causes the derailing, the obvious problem is the attitude of the posters. And it's not an attitude that's unique to TCG by any means, the TCG just happens to be the place it flairs up the most. So unless the people who cause the escalation the most actually actively change there attitude to posting, nothing will happen to change this, except maybe cutting down the number of people who post in the end. 

 

And that's advice for that could and probably should be applied more generally across the site. 

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

Stopped caring around the same time Will asked me to stop. Account wise more specifically. Separating the sections from TCG/OCG and manga/anime wouldn't exactly help. It makes it less clogged, yes, but it doesn't help members get along. The problem I usually saw when I was active, was someone giving an original idea with what I think was a Gemini deck. He was quickly berated, called a filthy casual, and then a debate on which tier 1 deck would be better for him started it. To make matters worse, the mods were active in it acting like it was happy and dandy. How about separating the sections for casuals and professionals? A place for those that are more casual about the game to swap ideas and such rather than getting bashed for trying to make them. Sure, it won't stop the fights outright because well have the same old arguments and the same old superiority complexes and everything else but that's a forum for you. This will always be there. However, separating them and giving each side its own space would certainly lessen it. 

As for the card design sub-topic. I wholeheartedly agree. Perhaps we can have another sub-section for that as well and have one under casual and another under professional? 

[Zauls]

Stopped caring around the same time Will asked me to stop. Account wise more specifically. Separating the sections from TCG/OCG and manga/anime wouldn't exactly help. It makes it less clogged, yes, but it doesn't help members get along. The problem I usually saw when I was active, was someone giving an original idea with what I think was a Gemini deck. He was quickly berated, called a filthy casual, and then a debate on which tier 1 deck would be better for him started it. To make matters worse, the mods were active in it acting like it was happy and dandy. How about separating the sections for casuals and professionals? A place for those that are more casual about the game to swap ideas and such rather than getting bashed for trying to make them. Sure, it won't stop the fights outright because well have the same old arguments and the same old superiority complexes and everything else but that's a forum for you. This will always be there. However, separating them and giving each side its own space would certainly lessen it. 

 

As for the card design sub-topic. I wholeheartedly agree. Perhaps we can have another sub-section for that as well and have one under casual and another under professional? 

 

Splitting this forum into more and more subsections is exactly the opposite of what should happen. For starters, it divides the community. Secondly, it decreases overall activity because lots of subsections overall will get less attention than one larger section. Also, as Black stated, the discrepancy between casual and competitive, or even different levels of casual, means the sections will just be confusing. Also, not enough people actually play competitively for a competitive subsection to be active enough.

 

My proposition for one big section for general Yu-Gi-Oh discussion and for the OP to state clearly what they want to discuss about a certain card/archetype/whatever. It should be obvious that if we're discussing Perfomapals we're not going to be discussing them from a competitive standpoint. I've been PMing evilfusion and we've come to a conclusion that a divide between the two, whether it be through tags or subsections, is not going to happen.

 

I do agree that the whole attitude thing is a problem. I don't think that can be solved by changing the rules or rearranging the section. I think the rule about specifying what you want to discuss in the OP might help, but it's difficult to play peoples' attitudes.

 

I've proposed a rule to evilfusion and I guess I'll see what you guys think about it. The idea is to have some kind of Advanced Clause like they have in CC. All it would mean is that your point has to add something to the discussion and it has to be justified. It will sort out the problem of people saying "this card is toxic, ban it" or things like that which, understandably, pisses people off. It will generally improve discussion quality as well.

[Blake]

I suggested an AC here years ago. I just got called elitist and shut down, so take that as you will.

[Zauls]

I suggested an AC here years ago. I just got called elitist and shut down, so take that as you will.

 

Well if anyone starts spouting words like "elitist" at me I'll tell them to shut the funk up and get out because they're what's hampering progress and preventing problems being solved. I'm not an elitist, I enjoy the fun of the game as much as I enjoy the competitive aspects. However, I also don't want a forum riddled with stupidity and shitposts by people who don't know what they're talking about and bash any kind of intellect at "elitism".

[玄魔の王]

I suggested an AC here years ago. I just got called elitist and shut down, so take that as you will.

So every user's first comment post would have to be as long as the original post? Because back in 2011 when I was aregular in WC that as what the mods enforced, and if somebody writes a topic with a huge OP everybody would have to write a dissertation in reply. Especially if images are count as part of post length.

[Blake]

So every user's first comment post would have to be as long as the original post? Because back in 2011 when I was aregular in WC that as what the mods enforced, and if somebody writes a topic with a huge OP everybody would have to write a dissertation in reply. Especially if images are count as part of post length.

that was me and koko

 

we were trying to find what worked best, and that was merely an early draft

 

That said, this is not CC, so an AC would be different here.

[玄魔の王]

that was me and koko

 

we were trying to find what worked best, and that was merely an early draft

 

That said, this is not CC, so an AC would be different here.

It nearly killed participation in WC.

 

What would an AC be here?

[Goose]

ACs are stupid ideas that hamper discussion by making people jump through hoops to post.  

[Aerion Brightflame]

ACs are stupid ideas that hamper discussion by making people jump through hoops to post.  

 

The counter argument is that if you can't make a decent length post, you probably don't have a lot to contribute to the topic in the first place, and thus what is the point of posting in it other than increasing the post count? 

 

Not always true, but still

[Goose]

The counter argument is that if you can't make a decent length post, you probably don't have a lot to contribute to the topic in the first place, and thus what is the point of posting in it other than increasing the post count? 

 

Not always true, but still

 

You might not have a lot, but as long as you have anything you should be allowed to post

[evilfusion]

The idea of the AC to my understanding in Custom Cards is to require people to give worthwhile feedback to people's work, rather than just a noncommittal "Too OP" or "8/10" or other stupid menial things that give absolutely nothing of value because it doesn't elaborate on the person's views.

 

I highly doubt that I would make something so strict in regards to cards that already exist and therefore don't need feedback to the creator. There's not even a guarantee I would go as far as making an Advanced Clause equivalent. I'm mostly taking note of ideas and suggestions.

[玄魔の王]

The idea of the AC to my understanding in Custom Cards is to require people to give worthwhile feedback to people's work, rather than just a noncommittal "Too OP" or "8/10" or other stupid menial things that give absolutely nothing of value because it doesn't elaborate on the person's views.

 

I highly doubt that I would make something so strict in regards to cards that already exist and therefore don't need feedback to the creator. There's not even a guarantee I would go as far as making an Advanced Clause equivalent. I'm mostly taking note of ideas and suggestions.

It was more than just providing feedback. I once reviewed an archetype in WC and addressed all the individual cards in a post a good paragraph long, and STILL gota arning under the advanced clause. Getting people to elaborate is one thing, but if the demanded post legnth is so high it scares people away from commenting and those that do post et punished fo trying, it no longer serves its intended Puropse.

[evilfusion]

It was more than just providing feedback. I once reviewed an archetype in WC and addressed all the individual cards in a post a good paragraph long, and STILL gota arning under the advanced clause. Getting people to elaborate is one thing, but if the demanded post legnth is so high it scares people away from commenting and those that do post et punished fo trying, it no longer serves its intended Puropse.

 

Again, if any such concept was implemented here, it would not be so strict. I far prefer this section to be more open to fun and a casual atmosphere than super-serious. This is why my stance on spam posts tends to be so lenient - I'm okay with people making occasional jokes and such that don't directly contribute to the topic, but when this becomes the norm or cause the whole thread to devolve into stupidity, it's problematic.