Universal Basic Income

[Zauls]

So I've come across this interesting article on the idea of a Universal Basic Income, which is literally just giving your entire population enough money to get by. Have a read here:

 

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/universal-basic-income.html

 

There are a couple of points that aren't covered in the article, such as the explicit cost of such a feat. In the UK, the total yearly cost would be about the same as the entire current government's yearly budget. Though if this were introduced, a hugely significant amount of government spending would be replaced, so the total cost wouldn't be too much more, I'd expect we'd have to spend maybe £100-200bn a year more than current, but that money can be raised through things like tax avoidance tackling, particularly for large corporations, as well as perhaps a financial transaction tax or various things like that. Overall, it's not completely implausible and I would argue the benefits outweigh the costs.

 

Personally, if I had access to a basic income, I would actually start to be able to do something productive in my life, rather than spend my life searching for jobs that aren't there, completely stressing about the future, unsure if I'll be able to get back into education. I would be able to start a band, which I would argue benefits the local economy and community far more than working at a till in a supermarket.

 

One thing that the article also doesn't cover is the implication that the job market becomes more in the employee's favour over the employer's. Since there is the option to not work, or less implication for leaving a job, it incentivises employers to pay more and improve working conditions and job satisfaction.

 

The only real issue I have with this, apart from the rent price issue in the article, is the impact of the increased consumption. I'd argue UBI would have to be introduced alongside huge measures to make consumption more sustainable, including greater emphasis on renewable energy and the use of biodegradable materials in packaging, etc.

 

Anyway, that's my thoughts, what do you guys think?

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Very interesting concept, that I would support looking into, but the implementation feels near-impossible, at least for the time being.

[Raine]

Idea unclear, my family already lives primarily off the governments dime. 

[mido9]

Finland is considering it at 800 Euros per month for everyone: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/finland-plans-to-give-every-citizen-800-euros-a-month-and-scrap-benefits-a6762226.html

 

Swissra is going to have a referendum on it in june for 1.5k: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-will-be-the-first-country-in-the-world-to-vote-on-having-a-national-wage-of-1700-a-month-a6843666.html

 

Canada too, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ontario-to-pilot-a-universal-basic-income-experiment-a6916571.html

 

France: http://www.basicincome.org/news/2016/01/france-digital-council-report-basic-income/

 

Lots of European countries are considering it.

 

Basically, there's a lot of popular support for it so it's not that far away, but it has to completely replace all other social programs or welfare or it's going to spike the budgets massively, and it has to be universal 100% so it doesn't cause welfare cliffs. I really like it just since it removes bureaucracy to an extent and you already give people huge cash boosts with welfare, why not just let 'em choose how they want to spend them? 

[Aerion Brightflame]

I imagine it's eventually going to replace most current social security measures (If not all) as Blue-collar work continues to disappear. People not having to worry about working for the sake of surviving would deal with a lot of issues currently in place. Especially since, unlike social security, efforts to obtain an employment would be an incentive for more from life, not to simply survive living. But implementation is a bugger, because you have to phase it in or else a lot of the unpleasant, but necessary jobs will have people abandoning them, and that's something that just can't happen. Also the sheer amount of capitalist societies doesn't help this. 

 

In 20 or 30 years, I can see this being the norm if it gets implemented well. But that's a pretty big if. I'd personally like it to be the norm.

[Poc]

Government handouts like this are bad, when the government gives you free money there's no incentive to work and your economy can't grow. Not to mention the people who do work will be paying for those who don't, how is that fair?

 

I really hope this doesn't pass in Ontario. Taxes in this province are already out of control with nothing to show for them.

[Zauls]

Government handouts like this are bad, when the government gives you free money there's no incentive to work and your economy can't grow. Not to mention the people who do work will be paying for those who don't, how is that fair?

 

I really hope this doesn't pass in Ontario. Taxes in this province are already out of control with nothing to show for them.

 

Thing is though, according to the trial runs, this simply isn't true. The only groups of people who may stop working are new mothers who need to take care of their children. Also perhaps those with health conditions that make working more difficult. They get government money in the form of child tax credits and perhaps disability allowance anyway (in the UK at least) so there's not even much different going on there. In the end, people will be paying more for those who can't work than those who won't work, which is what already happens and in my opinion is perfectly fair.

 

Also, remember this money is only enough to support a very basic living. You'd be able to afford nothing more than the essentials. If having enough money to live is a disincentive to work, then why do the already rich keep working? There is more to work than just making money and in a country with UBI, more emphasis will be placed on job satisfaction, more people will be able to work doing what they want to. There would be an increase in the number of small business start-ups as people are really able to follow their dreams. The risk of starting a business venture is very much lessened by the cushion of UBI. I know that I, personally, would start a business if I received UBI.

 

Also, from a purely philosophical perspective, I don't agree with the mentality of seeing it as "free handouts". A person doesn't choose to be alive and really the only benefit they're getting from UBI is the ability to survive. The real "benefit" of the money given to people through UBI actually goes to the grocers, the landlords etc. in the form of profits, some of which is paid back to the government in tax. While that money circulates through the system, it will be taxed at various points and most will eventually make it back to the government, making it pretty much self-sustaining. Of course, things like tax dodging, particularly by major corporations, would have to be tackled in order to make this sustainable (tax avoidance costs the UK £120bn a year estimated) but that's a different issue.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Government handouts like this are bad, when the government gives you free money there's no incentive to work and your economy can't grow. Not to mention the people who do work will be paying for those who don't, how is that fair?

 

I really hope this doesn't pass in Ontario. Taxes in this province are already out of control with nothing to show for them.

 

It's less likely to give no incentive to work than the current benefit systems in place in a lot of countries; Currently you get unemployment benefits, which tend to be more than the money you could earn through low skill work (The easiest to get). So you are actively punished for finding a job because it makes it harder to survive. 

 

UBI means that having a job of any kind is purely improving the quality of life you can live, not taking away from it. You no longer have to stress about finding a menial job to pay the bills whilst you try and get the job you actually want. It just makes life less stressful for a lot of people. And makes work feel more rewarding, which are factors that could give an incentive for people to get into working more. The people who do work would contribute towards it; By paying taxes, as they already do. So it's not wildly different there. 

 

The economic growth is a worrying factor, but it is technically a worry in some for or another for every form of economic policy, even Capitalism as we have it now.

[Zauls]

How is economic growth a worry? This would very likely cause significant growth in an economy. It is essentially a mass redistribution of wealth towards the less well-off, and it is fact that the less well-off spend a greater portion of their income than the more well-off, simply because they have to. A large proportion this money will be spent and will be an injection into the economic cycle, rather than being saved in an off-shore tax-free bank account, resulting in growth. It's basic economics...

[vla1ne]

the line that stands out the most to me right now in this article is "if everyone is entitled to an income that guarantees them a basic standard of living, whether they work or not, the objection that the unemployed are getting something that the employed don't no longer carries any weight at all."

 

this is an amazing argument against opposing universal income. right now, i barely hit over 1k a month working, while many people i know get well over 2k a month simply because they have kids (whom they should have no business raising). universal income would remove this difference altogether, and would make working less of a chore to survive than it would be something to keep life interesting. it'd mean that the money you earn would be at least 80% yours to spend, and that alone would make working more enjoyable than going through the grind daily for a check you can barely keep.

[Miror B]

the line that stands out the most to me right now in this article is "if everyone is entitled to an income that guarantees them a basic standard of living, whether they work or not, the objection that the unemployed are getting something that the employed don't no longer carries any weight at all."

 

this is an amazing argument against opposing universal income. right now, i barely hit over 1k a month working, while many people i know get well over 2k a month simply because they have kids (whom they should have no business raising). universal income would remove this difference altogether, and would make working less of a chore to survive than it would be something to keep life interesting. it'd mean that the money you earn would be at least 80% yours to spend, and that alone would make working more enjoyable than going through the grind daily for a check you can barely keep.

The problem of work being something to "make life interesting" is that there are many other ways to do that, especially now in the time of technology and internet.

 

Can you imagine the people who do nothing but play League of Legends all day trying to get to platinum or diamond or whatever is the top rank, and still getting the same as the person who wants to use that time to work for society?

 

The biggest issues with proposals like these are "what happens when people just stop looking for jobs?". If you get your income regardless of work, then what's stopping me from playing my Xbox or Wii all day long? I get my money and that's all that's important to me.

[Aerion Brightflame]

The problem of work being something to "make life interesting" is that there are many other ways to do that, especially now in the time of technology and internet.

 

Can you imagine the people who do nothing but play League of Legends all day trying to get to platinum or diamond or whatever is the top rank, and still getting the same as the person who wants to use that time to work for society?

 

The biggest issues with proposals like these are "what happens when people just stop looking for jobs?". If you get your income regardless of work, then what's stopping me from playing my Xbox or Wii all day long? I get my money and that's all that's important to me.

 

There's nothing stopping you from doing that. However, UBI is a wage designed to allow people to survive; So afford basic accommodation, bills, and food. It is not money to live comfortably say. If you want better than that, you will need to work for it all the same. But that's the benefit; All the work you do isn't going to help you just 'survive' it makes your quality of life better. It doesn't care if you are already rich or poor; Everyone gets it. 

 

It means people not longer have to work multiple jobs a day just to keep a roof over there heads. You don't have to work long hours just to live. People who want a middle class life-style will still work for it, the rich will still have to 'work' to be rich. The difference is, the poor are no longer being punished for being poor. Because even if they are poor, there is never a chance that they cannot survive due to not earning enough. They might still handle money poorly, but then the fault is entirely on them. 

 

If you let people not have to worry about basic income to survive, then they can get more out of life than they otherwise might because they have less pressure to do things for the sake of surviving. It helps the arts, it helps the poor, it doesn't discriminate or short the middle class. In part it even sorts out benefit thefts. 

 

People can have the 'Oh we shouldn't give people hand-outs' argument all the want, but the reality is one way or another you will be doing this anyway. The Government has to try and prop up the people who can't afford to live or you'd have riots. UBI is just a more fair way of doing this for everyone. 

[vla1ne]

The problem of work being something to "make life interesting" is that there are many other ways to do that, especially now in the time of technology and internet.

 

Can you imagine the people who do nothing but play League of Legends all day trying to get to platinum or diamond or whatever is the top rank, and still getting the same as the person who wants to use that time to work for society?

 

The biggest issues with proposals like these are "what happens when people just stop looking for jobs?". If you get your income regardless of work, then what's stopping me from playing my Xbox or Wii all day long? I get my money and that's all that's important to me.

well brightflame said pretty much of what i was going to, and better than i could right now, but not giving a proper response of my own feels wrong, so:

 

income for basic survival is the only thing covered in UBI, so you can have a roof over your head, and food in your stomach, and even in that case, the money you spend is still going back into society. it wouldn't be enough to maintain internet and other luxuries, but it'd lessen the strain on the wallets of all citizens by a large margin, while simultaneously removing the much of the tangle from welfare and social security.

 

there'd be fewer (or no) excuses for homeless other than sheer wastefulness, meaning that charities like the rescue mission could re-funnel their efforts from the related areas into other sections, and the prevalence of theft in lower income communities could feasibly be reduced by a large margin thanks to the disconnect of work from basic needs. right now, a simple job loss can cause a crash in anybody's life, and many people i know force themselves to work half to death just to pay their bills and feed their families, but under UBI, layoffs wouldn't be quite as devastating to the public as a whole, and workers would be able to choose whether or not the want two jobs a day instead of actively needing two a day. it wouldn't remove every cost from the bottom line, but it could easily wipe out the most basic ones, and the desire to work would then theoretically stem from the desire to obtain the luxuries in life (for examples of the luxuries you'd want a job for; internet, car payments, loans to buy a house, new phones, phone payments themselves, money for a trip you want to take, yugioh cards, video games, video game consoles, subscription fees to whatever you might want, luxury hygienic  products, name brand clothes, gifts for the holidays, any pets you may decide to take care of, collectible figures ect,). there's a lot of things UBI wouldn't be able to cover, and working would, after you factor UBI have a far greater benefit towards purchasing the finer things in life, or even saving up just in case. essentially, UBI would cover the basics, but if you want anything above that, (and knowing humans, we do,) then you'll still need to work to get them.