Pseudo ShitList

[VCR_CAT]

Wading through backrow makes the game more skilled and you a better deck builder. Not all your plays will go through; you'll have to prioritize

 

Likewise, the cute s*** will go from your deck, and it will be the optimal build.

Except it doesn't Duster usually kills 2-3 cards, the chance of your opponent drawing three potent traps w/o Demise is low.

 

It'll literally be a slower Twin Twister that can't snipe, and has the benefit of being a +1 relative to Twin Twister

 

You can't throw claims like that around, when a very active format expressively proves such cases wrong

 

I get you're a low backrow fan, but that doesn't give you the right to spread falsities about the other side

 

I wasn't trying to make any points on how much Duster is actually killing; I'm more or less saying that with high numbers of back row, the game comes closer to a state where you either open with the removal, or you're going first. This isn't exactly a falsity; it's a fairly accurate statement towards what happens. I mean, already the TCG format is in that sort of state with how many Solemns there are, and it's honestly kind of disgusting to play in that regard.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I wasn't trying to make any points on how much Duster is actually killing; I'm more or less saying that with high numbers of back row, the game comes closer to a state where you either open with the removal, or you're going first. This isn't exactly a falsity; it's a fairly accurate statement towards what happens. I mean, already the TCG format is in that sort of state with how many Solemns there are, and it's honestly kind of disgusting to play in that regard.

Solemn Strike is a problem in that it is way to versatile. The common value of backrow in OCG (before Twin) was about 6-10, it's present, but not overwhelming. Torrential and BTH can set you back, but not on Strikes level. But at the same time the afford you a defense. 

 

I don't think it's an open and shut case like that. You play to the trap's weakness. Strike for example, is easily countered by non-inherent SS. So build around that idea, and you should be able to deal with Strike. You can pretty easily make similar cases for the other traps (Judgment and Warning are a little to versatile, but good ceiling helps there)

 

TCG don't have anything good to bait with, like the generic power spells aren't there, so every trap is a lot more powerful. Likely more so than in OCG. You can basically think of. With more power traps, the total number of traps in a deck doesn't change much, they'll just be more potent and force you to build around them. The added bonus is you have access to cards like reborn which also help promote the other side of the equation

 

I never really found TCG's current trap situation too oppressive, if anything I think Kozmo are disgusting design  

[VCR_CAT]

Solemn Strike is a problem in that it is way to versatile. The common value of backrow in OCG (before Twin) was about 6-10, it's present, but not overwhelming. Torrential and BTH can set you back, but not on Strikes level. But at the same time the afford you a defense. 

 

I don't think it's an open and shut case like that. You play to the trap's weakness. Strike for example, is easily countered by non-inherent SS. So build around that idea, and you should be able to deal with Strike. You can pretty easily make similar cases for the other traps (Judgment and Warning are a little to versatile, but good ceiling helps there)

 

TCG don't have anything good to bait with, like the generic power spells aren't there, so every trap is a lot more powerful. Likely more so than in OCG. You can basically think of. With more power traps, the total number of traps in a deck doesn't change much, they'll just be more potent and force you to build around them. The added bonus is you have access to cards like reborn which also help promote the other side of the equation

 

I never really found TCG's current trap situation too oppressive, if anything I think Kozmo are disgusting design  

 

More or less the only real problem in the TCG is Solemn Strike; and a lot of decks out there don't have easy access to non-inherent Special Summons. I mean, if the deck is Extra-Deck centered (barring fusions, of course), then a single Solemn Strike can set someone back a lot.

 

I mean, if we're talking power spells, I would actually very much like to see Monster Reborn come back. I was thinking about it the other day and liked the idea the more I thought about it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

More or less the only real problem in the TCG is Solemn Strike; and a lot of decks out there don't have easy access to non-inherent Special Summons. I mean, if the deck is Extra-Deck centered (barring fusions, of course), then a single Solemn Strike can set someone back a lot.

 

I mean, if we're talking power spells, I would actually very much like to see Monster Reborn come back. I was thinking about it the other day and liked the idea the more I thought about it.

Avarice is another popular one that can help your recover. CoTH is pretty generic? Most decks don't run Soul Charge afaik

 

There are options. The problem stems from Twin Twister and Strike existing at the same time, cause Twin does more than just hit oppressive traps 

People are complaining because traps are awful vs Kozmo to begin with.

 

It's not that Dark Destroyer being unkillable, it's the fact that you cannot kill them under Dark Destroyer, you have to devote resources (best case in Utopia the Lightning still consumes a BP) and Kozmo can take advantage and kill you under low-resource environments

 

Playing traps that don't replace themselves and you have no guarantee of seeing will just give them free turns to recover and outgrind...torrential is awful like damn they can just SS Strawman or Sliprider or Landwalker or Dark Lady to tag out into another ship ??? Literally we already have Kaiju.

I was mainly thinking BTH w/ respect to Kozmo. Does it really matter if BTH doesn't replace itself, cause the Kozmo won't replace themselves

 

Outside of the 1's and 2's most things seem vulnerable to BTH (granted town will still be a jabroni)

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but I don't see Kozmo being nearly as good as they are in TCG, in OCG 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Wading through backrow makes the game more skilled and you a better deck builder.

 

Contrary to what is often said here, these are not the most important things in game design.

 

Yes, formats that are more often referred to as "skillful" (which is in and of itself an incredibly subjective term) are just as often seen as unfun. Enfranchised players are more likely to enjoy it, as they feel they gain more fulfillment since it requires them to play to higher levels of their ability, but these same things often turn away newer players, who don't understand the merits.

 

The majority of new players (which is the demographic Konami should be shaping the game to appeal to) don't want a backrow-oriented format.

 

An easy response to this is that the game would be better to cater toward competitive, enfranchised players, but they make up a minority of the game's target market, and increasing the overall player base is beneficial for both the health and longevity of the game.

[VCR_CAT]

It's also worth adding that it's almost insulting to say that a low-backrow format is skill-less. There are still a lot of cards with disruptive qualities (Rafflesia, ABC, Quantums, etc.) that differ from backrow in the fact that they're telegraphed as opposed to face-down. To me, backrow doesn't come across as skillful; it slows the game down into a state where you either have the removal, or you're just putting out smaller plays until the minefield is cleared. To me, telegraphed disruption monsters bring a whole different dynamic to the table; because it becomes a question of "How do I bait my opponent, and what if my opponent sees through my plays." I find it becomes more focused on being able to read your opponent and their strategies as opposed to "Well, that looks important; better Solemn it."

 

And I mean, honestly, I appreciate the gamestate more when there's more freedom to get your plays out and do what your deck is built to do. This doesn't make the game skill-less in comparison to a backrow heavy format; it's just a different kind of game with a different kind of mindset. Please don't play elitist by promoting your kind of game as better than mine.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's also worth adding that it's almost insulting to say that a low-backrow format is skill-less. There are still a lot of cards with disruptive qualities (Rafflesia, ABC, Quantums, etc.) that differ from backrow in the fact that they're telegraphed as opposed to face-down. To me, backrow doesn't come across as skillful; it slows the game down into a state where you either have the removal, or you're just putting out smaller plays until the minefield is cleared. To me, telegraphed disruption monsters bring a whole different dynamic to the table; because it becomes a question of "How do I bait my opponent, and what if my opponent sees through my plays." I find it becomes more focused on being able to read your opponent and their strategies as opposed to "Well, that looks important; better Solemn it."

 

And I mean, honestly, I appreciate the gamestate more when there's more freedom to get your plays out and do what your deck is built to do. This doesn't make the game skill-less in comparison to a backrow heavy format; it's just a different kind of game with a different kind of mindset. Please don't play elitist by promoting your kind of game as better than mine.

Why should everything be played openly? That takes an entire angle away from the game. Why should you're deck not face resistance. Why should all resistance be open? The fact that you have to test the waters, and subsequently build up plays, instead of just vomiting your hand and best plays on board is the real back and forth game. There's a reason PEPE was so cancerous, and that's cause you did precisely that. You played your deck as it was meant to be, with little fear of anything face down or not

 

Cold War YGO with deterrence and increasingly pushing the envelope creates objectively. It escalates and tests the players judgment when to invest. A more potent backrow just adds another variable for skillful plays to consider and act upon

 

Its not meant to be insulting towards you, but I'm sorry if you took it that way

 

Giga, that is a fair point, I guess the competitive bubble is a thing afterall 

[VCR_CAT]

Why should everything be played openly? That takes an entire angle away from the game. Why should you're deck not face resistance. Why should all resistance be open? The fact that you have to test the waters, and subsequently build up plays, instead of just vomiting your hand and best plays on board is the real back and forth game. There's a reason PEPE was so cancerous, and that's cause you did precisely that. You played your deck as it was meant to be, with little fear of anything face down or not

 

I said backrow; I didn't say disruption in general. "not face resistance" is a big jump to make based on my arguments, especially after I already spoke about disruption plays outside of backrow. Because while untelegraphed backrow has a dynamic, telegraphed disruption has a different dynamic it brings to the game; instead of reading a situation by testing the waters, you need to read your opponent and place yourself in their shoes: What do they want to hit, when do they want to hit it, and how can I play around that. PePe is an extreme example, so please don't assume that I'm saying "Yeah, yeah bring back that format." Nor am I saying "No backrow at all".

 

I'm saying that I don't appreciate heavy backrow formats. HAT was insufferable to play in. It makes the game slow and boring as essentially the goal is not so much to overcome your opponent as it is to stop them from achieving anything. That's not the kind of game I want to play. Telegraphed disruption, ESPECIALLY in something like Superheavy Samurais where a lot of it is out in the open (or in the grave, I should say) ((PLEASE NOTE I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE META OR ANYTHING; THIS IS PURELY AN EXAMPLE)). Both players will know what kind of disruption is being brought to the table, and the chance being taken isn't so much on "What's the backrow, I hope it's not bad I better play it safe" as it is focused on reading your opponent and playing around their strategies.

 

I guess the comparison is being made; you strive for the Cold War, where a player is tasked with when to strike and how hard; while I strive for the heated battle where a player is tasked with knowing their opponent and knowing how to strike.

[Kaiji]

Avarice is another popular one that can help your recover. CoTH is pretty generic? Most decks don't run Soul Charge afaik

 

There are options. The problem stems from Twin Twister and Strike existing at the same time, cause Twin does more than just hit oppressive traps 

I was mainly thinking BTH w/ respect to Kozmo. Does it really matter if BTH doesn't replace itself, cause the Kozmo won't replace themselves

 

Outside of the 1's and 2's most things seem vulnerable to BTH (granted town will still be a b****)

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but I don't see Kozmo being nearly as good as they are in TCG, in OCG 

You have Rafflesia to use the 1 copy. Putting BTH to more than 1 copy wont change anything and this doesn't solve Fire King Kozmo who can play past the 1 Bottomless.

 

This also doesn't solve going second to vs the deck.