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UK EU Referendum [In or Out?]


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Poll: In or Out? (24 member(s) have cast votes)

In or Out?

  1. I am voting for the UK to stay in the EU (10 votes [41.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.67%

  2. I am voting for the UK to leave the EU (5 votes [20.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.83%

  3. I won't be voting (9 votes [37.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

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#21
Zauls

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Birthrates have dropped yes. People might not understand economics, but they certainly feel it


And Bernie isn't radical?

 

The thing here is it's not even political outside of the fact that the right is pushing it. It's simple economics, immigrants that don't have skills needed in the economy are detrimental.

 

Whether Brexit will solve that issue is a different question

 

I don't think you understood my point, but anyway. You can't accuse me of not understanding economics, considering I have an A-Level and half a degree in it and I can say from an standpoint of non-neoclassical economics, immigration is a net benefit to the UK.

 

Also, a side note, Bernie Sanders is the least radical of all the candidates this campaign, he is closest to the centre-ground.


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#22
Ryusei the Morning Star

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I don't think you understood my point, but anyway. You can't accuse me of not understanding economics, considering I have an A-Level and half a degree in it and I can say from an standpoint of non-neoclassical economics, immigration is a net benefit to the UK.

 

Also, a side note, Bernie Sanders is the least radical of all the candidates this campaign, he is closest to the centre-ground.

Not you, I'm talking the average UK/US citizen...or for that matter the avg college student 

 
If you're trying to make the point that having children increases the labor force, that's a fair point, but people are also dying. So the question becomes, is a UK educated child more fit for the labor market or is a immigrant more fit. If the immigrant is favored, yes, people should stop having as many children
 
Sorry didn't mean to offend you.
 
Bernie not being radical...reasoning on that?

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#23
Zauls

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Not you, I'm talking the average UK/US citizen...or for that matter the avg college student 

 
If you're trying to make the point that having children increases the labor force, that's a fair point, but people are also dying. So the question becomes, is a UK educated child more fit for the labor market or is a immigrant more fit. If the immigrant is favored, yes, people should stop having as many children
 
Sorry didn't mean to offend you.
 
Bernie not being radical...reasoning on that?

 

 

Honestly, it was more a tongue-in-cheek rhetorical question to ridicule your point on immigration and the fact you would even seriously consider stopping people making the life choice of having a child for the sake of apparent minor economic benefits shown only by a simplified model shows your views are non-empathetic at best and sociopathic at worst. This is generally the problem I have with right-wing economic views, they know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

 

As far as Bernie is concerned, it is shown on the political compass that he is pretty damn close to the centre of left-right and exactly on the centre of authoritarian-libertarian. The Republican candidates are all pretty much the same, about as right-authoritarian as it gets, Hilary is basically Republican-lite.

 

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#24
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Hmm, I kinda want the details on how they calculate all that. If Hillary is conservative, I must be off the chart lol

 

I also honestly think the price is the value at the end of the day, but feel free to disagree with me on that


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#25
Aerion Brightflame

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It's because America is fairly right shifted anyway I would imagine. Has been since Regan (Who despite being the bannerman for Republicans would likely run as a Democrat today) To the extent that in order for the Republicans to have a distinct identity they had to appeal to the extreme right loonies (And allowed the Tea party to take over I think), and that basically undermined the party and lead to Trump being the viable option. 

 

I've said it before, but Sanders is only really liberal by US standards - But those same standards would label most conservative parties in Europe say as being liberal. 


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#26
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It's because America is fairly right shifted anyway I would imagine. Has been since Regan (Who despite being the bannerman for Republicans would likely run as a Democrat today) To the extent that in order for the Republicans to have a distinct identity they had to appeal to the extreme right loonies (And allowed the Tea party to take over I think), and that basically undermined the party and lead to Trump being the viable option. 

 

I've said it before, but Sanders is only really liberal by US standards - But those same standards would label most conservative parties in Europe say as being liberal. 

Guessing UKIP is the exception to the rule then?


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#27
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Guessing UKIP is the exception to the rule then?

 

UKIP is not our conservative party. It might be comprised mostly of former Tories, but it's not the Conservative party. It's one of the many far right parties that have risen up in Europe in the past 5 years. It wasn't even the first one in our country the BNP predated it. But the BNP had way too many negative associations to ever be viable. 

 

Plus you know they follow the pattern of if you yell a lie loud and often enough people will start thinking it's true. The Leave Campaign is just essentially an extension of the rise of UKIP - They even have similar political approaches, namely spout bullshit at people and hope they don't bother to look up why it's a lie. Generally taking people's disenchantment and directing it wrongly at immigration

 

Trump is essentially the US equivalent to this. 


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#28
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~90% of economists think that the UK is better off in the EU. I don't have any in depth understand of economics, so I'm better off trusting people who do.

 

Let's also not let this debate fly off into the US presidential election please - we already have a thread for that.

 

Also: voting tomorrow! I'm very excited! It will be the first vote I do that I care about. I have done one vote before but it was for the Police and Crime Commissioner and I didn't like any of the candidates.



#29
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My first foray into voting was also for the Police and Crime commissioner, and I wasn't really bothered who got it in my area tbph.

 

As for tomorrow's vote, should be interesting.


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#30
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My first was also for the PCC although I had little interest in it compared to this. I'm intrigued to see what the result is tomorrow but I'll also be relieved once its over, stay or leave. Being part of the downfall of a strong 4 year friendship over difference in political views has not been the greatest time. 



#31
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well, i've got no real dog in the fight, but i will say, it's more of a decision to remain independent, vs, lose sovereignty. if you stay, you will be melted into the country, for better or worse, and if you leave, you will have to stand on your own, keeping your freedom, but having to make your own stand again, for better or worse.

 

interesting video on the topic by sargon

he seems to have the right of things from what i know of the situation. you can object to his stance on leaving, but he's backing his reasoning pretty well. 


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#32
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Actually Cameron got a deal that excludes us from the idea of the 'ever closer union' of the EU. On condition of us voting in, it will be drafted into EU legislation that any and all talks and attempts to create an 'ever closer union' do not apply to the UK.

 

So our sovereignty isn't entirely compromised upon us staying in the EU as some want to argue. 


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#33
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i wasn't paying attention to this but i watch john oliver so

 


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#34
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well, i've got no real dog in the fight, but i will say, it's more of a decision to remain independent, vs, lose sovereignty. if you stay, you will be melted into the country, for better or worse, and if you leave, you will have to stand on your own, keeping your freedom, but having to make your own stand again, for better or worse.

 

interesting video on the topic by sargon

he seems to have the right of things from what i know of the situation. you can object to his stance on leaving, but he's backing his reasoning pretty well. 

Sovereignty is a ridiculous thing to want anyway. If you think sovereignty is a good thing, then logically you should also be for breaking up the UK into its constituent countries, and for breaking up those into their constituent counties and those into classical-style city states. How is it possible to non-arbitrarily determine that the amount of sovereignty we have at the moment is the 'correct' amount of sovereignty? I'll bet you can't.

 

Historically, groups of people have banded together because teamwork and cooperation makes us stronger. Would any of the states of the United States of America have got as far as it did if they weren't united?

 

Sovereignty brings no inherent utility. We'd simply be handing control from one group of elites (the EU) to another (the Tories).

 

EDIT:

 

 

i wasn't paying attention to this but i watch john oliver so

 

Wasn't really listening, but:

 

"But, a Brexit or British exit could have wide ranging implications .. for the UK." at 1:30

 

Just made me chuckle.



#35
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Sovereignty is a ridiculous thing to want anyway. If you think sovereignty is a good thing, then logically you should also be for breaking up the UK into its constituent countries, and for breaking up those into their constituent counties and those into classical-style city states. How is it possible to non-arbitrarily determine that the amount of sovereignty we have at the moment is the 'correct' amount of sovereignty? I'll bet you can't.

 

Historically, groups of people have banded together because teamwork and cooperation makes us stronger. Would any of the states of the United States of America have got as far as it did if they weren't united?

 

Sovereignty brings no inherent utility. We'd simply be handing control from one group of elites (the EU) to another (the Tories).

Sovereignty here means making the best decisions for the people living in your country. Which might not line up with the agenda of the EU.

 

Not exactly, those break-ups might not be needed if the laws of the UK aren't detrimental to the people living in those parts. If it's not broken, don't fix it

 

As for the US, it's true. My country was great once. We had allies, but our laws were for the most part made to suit the American people. The rise and persistence of outdated programs like NATO and NAFTA (god forbid the TTP) have slowed America down. America got to where it was by focusing on our internal working and engaging in wars when we needed to (something which the last two presidents have had no tact for)

 

America letting go of it's sovereignty is the reason why we're not great anymore

 

@Zauls

 

A point about children. If Capital isn't used (having a "negative" labor force in that there's not enough workers) depreciation is largely increased since the change in product would stagnate relative to the change in capital. It's necessary to have children because people are dying constantly and you'd need to replace them. Children > Immigrants most of the time because a child raised and sent through the UK school system is likely more skilled than an immigrant willing to accept lower wages. If the reverse holds true, then of course, the skilled immigrant should be allowed in.

 

That's a UK first policy. One where immigration is tightly controlled and work visa's are regulated

 

If this wasn't clear enough, look to America. Doctors from countries like India tend to be far less competent than those put through the American Medical Program. If you keep letting those second rate doctors in, and pay them the same wage, what motivation is there for attempting to strive? It'll just cause stagnation all over

 

That all being said, none of your are going to change your vote, nor is a few hundred votes likely to change the outcome. I shall be very interested to see the results tomorrow (for me?)

 

~90% of economists think that the UK is better off in the EU. I don't have any in depth understand of economics, so I'm better off trusting people who do

If there's one reason I hate my generation, it's this logic. They might know more than you, but what proof do you have that they're trustworthy.

 

No you're  bloody not. You're better off educating yourself a little bit and understanding how they bullshit you at times.

 

Like why do you think so many idiots support Sanders and Trump here, cause they really know nothing and just listen to "experts"

 

You just willingly became their sock puppet mouth piece. 

 

This isn't directed at the left or the right, both lie to people hoping they're sheep. And our generation loves to eat their shit right up


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#36
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Sovereignty here means making the best decisions for the people living in your country. Which might not line up with the agenda of the EU.

 

Not exactly, those break-ups might not be needed if the laws of the UK aren't detrimental to the people living in those parts. If it's not broken, don't fix it

If you knew anything about the UK government, you would know that they have not and will not make the best decisions for anyone other than themselves or their filthy rich friends. I don't trust the EU people but I trust our own government even less.

 

 

If there's one reason I hate my generation, it's this logic. They might know more than you, but what proof do you have that they're trustworthy.

 

No you're  bloody not. You're better off educating yourself a little bit and understanding how they bullshit you at times.

 

Like why do you think so many idiots support Sanders and Trump here, cause they really know nothing and just listen to "experts"

 

You just willingly became their sock puppet mouth piece. 

 

This isn't directed at the left or the right, both lie to people hoping they're sheep. And our generation loves to eat their s*** right up

I'm not going to do anything more than point out that there are a few fallacies involved in blaming a specific generation for behaviour that is likely performed by people from all generations. This is so as not to derail the thread onto an 'attack/defend millennials' theme.

 

I have no proof that they are trustworthy, but then how can we 'prove' that any expert is trustworthy? And before we know it, we're off down a metaphorical rabbit hole of flat earth-ing, Bush-did-9/11-ing and alternative medicine.

 

And sorry, but my brain just isn't cut out for understanding complex economics. And I refuse to fall to the cognitive bias of trusting my own judgement over that of someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

 

Finally, I only threw in the 9/10 economists thing to bring some statistics to this thread. This is the main reason that I will be voting to remain in the EU:

  • The EU imposes restrictions on the amount of greenhouse gases that companies are allowed to emit while operating in the UK. While these restrictions don't go nearly far enough, they are better than having no restrictions at all, which would be the case were the UK to leave the EU.

There are other reasons, but it's half past midnight at the moment, so I really can't be bothered since you're not voting anyway.



#37
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There's nothing wrong with trusting expert opinions so long as you don't take it at face value immediately - Look for a consensus and if possible look at the actual credentials of the expert. 

 

It's nothing to do with it being generational, it's just the fact the media on the whole is a lot less likely to represent facts properly. Baby Boomers do this just as much as millenials do - Hell millennials are probably more likely to avoid this kind of bull because we know how to use the internet more effectively. We have a much wider range of sources to look at, assuming we are willing to. Admittedly most education systems suck at instilling critical thinking in people but hey, that's been a fault for decades now.

 

Don't blame our generation, blame the media for being sheet and distorting what an 'expert' means. 

 

Also Sovereignty is a weaker ideal in a world where the actions of each country has massive repercussions. sheet like climate change can't be dealt with by dealing solely with the needs of your nation it has to deal with the needs of the world. It's simply stuff we have to be concerned about nowadays even if it means shitting on a few nations in the process. 


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#38
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If I could vote, can't vote until December, I would be voting to remain. Haven't looked much into it but having to start getting passport checks along the border of NI and the ROI would cost money and is sort of a reason I would rather stay. Also I would trust the Remain party more than the Leave as the arguments just seem better.

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#39
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There's nothing wrong with trusting expert opinions so long as you don't take it at face value immediately - Look for a consensus and if possible look at the actual credentials of the expert. 

I mean, many of those experts couldn't see Greece's lies to enter the EU, couldn't avert the disaster of its debt crisis when there was an almost 10 year warning(and aren't doing anything to stop spain's), couldn't see the costs of the middle east's wars(1 year prediction for iraq. Hah.), couldn't predict either of the last two bubbles, and predicted that the EU would strengthen growth and for almost 15 years Europe has the slowest GDP growth in the world.

 

So when it comes to predicting the future, "political experts" can guess MAYBE the weather at tops, in my opinion.




 

 

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#40
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I mean, many of those experts couldn't see Greece's lies to enter the EU, couldn't avert the disaster of its debt crisis when there was an almost 10 year warning(and aren't doing anything to stop spain's), couldn't see the costs of the middle east's wars(1 year prediction for iraq. Hah.), couldn't predict either of the last two bubbles, and predicted that the EU would strengthen growth and for almost 15 years Europe has the slowest GDP growth in the world.

 

So when it comes to predicting the future, "political experts" can guess MAYBE the weather at tops, in my opinion.

 

Okay..? 
 

These people still have a more intimate understanding of economics in the real world than I will. I can educate myself enough to understand there arguments if they make them, but they are still going to make better judgements than I will when given the same data. Especially given Economics to my understanding functions more like an art than a science, given the amount of variables that influence it. 

 

Because it's funny you use the example of the Weather since that's a great comparison - Despite the array of data available to meteorologists at any given time, actually predicting the specific outcome becomes f***ing hard because so many tiny variables can have huge unforeseen repercussions on the end results, and it leaves them looking like idiots. 

 

But I'd still trust a meteorologists interpretation of the available facts over mine after I've read a few books. For me the same is true for economics. 

 

Can I ask this: Are you sure it's not just confirmation bias at work in your argument? Are you just blaming them for missing these things with the knowledge that it happened and the idea that as 'experts' they should have seen them all coming? Or have you actually looked at the information they had on hand before these events and judged them to be incompetant for not spotting something? Because that is kinda important to remember - That we have a lot more information about these events now that the economists did when they made whatever calls they made. 

 

Again my take is just don't take them at face value. Not disregard them entirely, but just be decently skeptical. 


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