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UK EU Referendum [In or Out?]


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Poll: In or Out? (22 member(s) have cast votes)

In or Out?

  1. I am voting for the UK to stay in the EU (10 votes [45.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 45.45%

  2. I am voting for the UK to leave the EU (5 votes [22.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.73%

  3. I won't be voting (7 votes [31.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.82%

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#41
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Sovereignty is a ridiculous thing to want anyway. If you think sovereignty is a good thing, then logically you should also be for breaking up the UK into its constituent countries, and for breaking up those into their constituent counties and those into classical-style city states. How is it possible to non-arbitrarily determine that the amount of sovereignty we have at the moment is the 'correct' amount of sovereignty? I'll bet you can't.

 

Historically, groups of people have banded together because teamwork and cooperation makes us stronger. Would any of the states of the United States of America have got as far as it did if they weren't united?

 

Sovereignty brings no inherent utility. We'd simply be handing control from one group of elites (the EU) to another (the Tories).

 

 

 

and if you are against controlling your own country, then you should be proud of the fact that your country has had no say in anything the EU has put forwards to this day. all objections your country has put forward in relation to new bills have been ignored or shot down, and your representatives have been disrespected in the very court room where of the EU makes decisions, your country has enough clout and power within the EU on it's own that the deals for immunity to future policies went through with minor trouble, and countries like greece and spain are apparently looking to your country in regards to whether or not they break away. yet your country has been among the lowest favored in the entire organization to this point, does that make any sense to you? you live within what was one of the most powerful countries in the world, and have, i believe the fifth or sixth most powerful economy at the current moment, and your country has been steadily getting pushed around the EU floor.

 

the US was built under, and operates under, a completely different set of rules from the EU, teamwork and cooperation mean nothing when your voice is drowned out if it's anything but supportive in the echo chamber. your country is built upon a different set of rules than america, but i assume the people still have some form of voice. and right now you'd rather give up your voice than work to establish your freedom. you aren't joining countries that were established under similar grounds, you aren't building the EU from the ground up, it's being built from the top down, it might succeed of fail, but in either case, Britain's is it's own country right now, and this is the only shot at remaining as such. you can either hold that title with pride, and make the effort to grow it as it's own sovereign nation, or you can remove it and latch on under the EU. you don't care about that though, so we won't see eye to eye here regardless.

 

you have a worldview in that area completely alien to me, i said it already, i don't have a dog in the fight, so i really don't care one way or the other, but you can't change if you aren't willing to struggle for it, britain isn't as weak as you seem to think, and the only way your economy would collapse the way economists are predicting is if you broke off from the EU immediately and cut all ties the next day. that's probably not how the system would work though, i could be wrong here, but there would be quite a bit of paperwork and red tape to cut through before the effects set in, and in that time, so long as you can compose a proper economics plan, including trading, outsourcing, deal making, EU cooperation, and taxing, you could make it out with minimal losses. not as easy as i make it sound, i know, but if you value your country, over being told what to do by outside sources, then you'd vote to leave. sovereignty brings the ability to set your own rules, under the EU, you will have absolutely no say in the rules, you might have a deal set to be immune to absorption, but you'll only ever be the out group until you abandon the freedoms that cameron is negotiating for. you already are, and you will remain such until you give in. either make your own way, or accept everything that comes with joining the crowd. you lose what? 3 million jobs from within the EU? you would then have to open up even more jobs relating to trade and other related facilities. it's not a direct negative, it would all depend upon the size of the shift towards trading. alongside conquering other countries, britain's got a rich history of trade, you still import and export more than practically any other country in the EU, on a side note, are you seriously saying that you trust the EU more than your own country? no government is immune to corruption, and the farther your government is from you, the less you can control said corruption. I'm pretty sure the EU has already been called out on it's spending habits as is, there is no guarantee that you'll be getting an uncorrupted government just because you rely on the one that's more "unified"

 

in fact, oliver was somewhat wrong in his estimations and statements. for one, he was right about the people he showed being racists (that fat lady was racist to a comical degree) but he then attempted to cover the entire movement as if it were. it's people having pride in their country, and wanting to make it thrive without relying on outside help. or giving up their national identity. there is nothing wrong with that in moderation, and it's not too hard to see why they'd have a bit of pride considering the power your country wielded in the past. as far as his money statement, he didn't factor the shifts in jobs, including the new job opportunities negotiating with the EU instead of within the EU. the time taken to separate which would lead to a more balanced departure instead of the financial fiasco hurriedly predicted. the refunneling of money that would occur if britain no longer has to send money out of the country, meaning britain wouldn't be taking a direct negative with those profits either.  the amount of new trade jobs that would open in the wake of separating. the release of foreign prisoners (reducing the cost of prison maintenance).  the reduced costs of regulations within britain rom not having to adhere to the more costly regulations at such a breakneck pace. the ability to place a cap on, and properly screen, the amount of immigrants accepted into the country, unlike the "borderless" rule that's currently in effect. the ability to set it's own taxes, while developing more small businesses, upon leaving.there are a lot of plusses that oliver left out in his statement, he's not wrong, there are plenty of benefits to staying as well, but just because the UK has clout, doesn't mean it has power. they send more to britain than they accept from britain, meaning they'd take more damage than britain if they played the tax game. britain might export a lot, but unless they decide to raise taxes on britain higher than they do for other countries (which would be purely spiteful, and easy to call out/exploit) britain can still gain more than it would lose from trading.

 

don't sell your home short man, you don't need to be flagrantly prideful in your country, but at least try to have a little bit of pride in your sovereignty, you are (maybe not you if you can't vote, but regardless) looking at history in the making, look at the side of leaving, and try to understand the reason they support standing on their own.


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#42
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#43
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To quote myself on facebook: 

 

So out of two shitty campaigns (Because both sides were sheet) that played off of fear instead of facts, the one we as a generation liked less won. It's a shame but that's politics.

All I would say is, instead of just yelling abuse at the otherside, we work together to address the issues, and to make the best of this decision. We are the ones who have to live with it, so we should get involved to make sure it's not awful for us.

Like you can argue that the 'uneducated' were the ones to ensure this result all you want - But if that is an issue, unless we do something about it, it will still be an issue 5 or 10 years down the line. Instead of abuse, we should advocate for actions. Get more people involved and educated about politics, about economics, about the way the media works. Get people to think and discuss the issues instead of the rhetoric. We might have voted brexit, but we can and should still challenge ignorance and we can still make something from this.

Now is the worst time to get turned away from politics because of the result, because the decisions we make as a nation in the aftermath of this mean everything.

 

If you got involved in the election, stay involved so you can work to make the end result as favourable towards us as we can. Politics is, as ever a compromise, so letting the result dissuade you at this time is an awful idea. 


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#44
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I kinda agree with Barty the PM resigning ATM really can't help smooth the transition

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#45
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I kinda agree with Barty the PM resigning ATM really can't help smooth the transition

Who is Barty?

As long as Corbyn doesn't resign idc tbh



#46
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Who is Barty?
As long as Corbyn doesn't resign idc tbh


Didn't 50+ labor MP wanna out him? Also something about a shadow cabinet wanting him out?

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#47
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Didn't 50+ labor MP wanna out him? Also something about a shadow cabinet wanting him out?

 

He's never had the support of his MP's as much as he's had public support. He was nowhere near a favourite going into the labour elections and yet he won very comfortably when it came to the actual voting. 

 

In the UK, the Shadow Cabinet despite sounding like a Sith organisation is simply the name of the opposition. In effect Corbyn is the leader of the shadow cabinet, so them wanting him out is just them calling for him to stop being Labour leader. 

 

Currently 2 MP's have put forth a vote of no confidence, which will be voted upon by labour MP's next week and may end up in him resign. But it's only two MP's so it's also possible that won't happen. 

 

And Cameron resigning is irritating because both his successors are awful choices, but I perfectly understand why. He was the majority leader of the Tories who promised a referendum on the EU, delivered it and had it blow up in his face. It is not shocking he chose to step down. 


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#48
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In the UK, the Shadow Cabinet despite sounding like a Sith organisation is simply the name of the opposition. 

 

As everyone knows, the British sith are particularly villainous.

 

Oh and bye David Cameron!

 

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#49
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He's never had the support of his MP's as much as he's had public support. He was nowhere near a favourite going into the labour elections and yet he won very comfortably when it came to the actual voting. 

 

In the UK, the Shadow Cabinet despite sounding like a Sith organisation is simply the name of the opposition. In effect Corbyn is the leader of the shadow cabinet, so them wanting him out is just them calling for him to stop being Labour leader. 

 

Currently 2 MP's have put forth a vote of no confidence, which will be voted upon by labour MP's next week and may end up in him resign. But it's only two MP's so it's also possible that won't happen. 

 

And Cameron resigning is irritating because both his successors are awful choices, but I perfectly understand why. He was the majority leader of the Tories who promised a referendum on the EU, delivered it and had it blow up in his face. It is not shocking he chose to step down. 

Times are changing maybe? The lib Dem guys was railing on him for not being able to control his voters?

 

AR50 takes 2 years to work, so the UK is basically a sitting duck for 2 years unless I misunderstood. And Boris apparently isn't in a hurry to leave

 

Yeah haha, Shadow Chancellor, Vote of No Confidence, a major referendum -- getting them Phantom Menace vibes

 

I've read that the two were "senior" members? Does that mean they'd have more pull? But agreed, regardless of his personal disgrace, the last thing the UK needs currently is more uncertainty. What's wrong with Boris? He seems very Paul Ryanish to me

 

Brexit isn't all bad, Gold Spikes and Mortgage lows can be used quite effectively now. I just hope more people like your parents and less like the 0.1% (assuming they're not) get to reap the benefits

 

That being said, this is global movement. Just look at Austria for a near miss if nothing else


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#50
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It takes 2 years because it requires a frankly immense amount of negotiation over basically every facet of UK business. And that's without considering the equivilant paperwork. 

 

Up until that point we are still an EU member however, all our existing deals and such are still in place. So we aren't technically more vulnerable or anything, we aren't just thrown amongst the Wolves before we've had any chance to do anything. 

 

And Corbyn was voted in with a massive amount of support but that hasn't lasted, and he hasn't made monumental gains. His party still really dislike him, and he's seen by some as very passive. He refuses to play the game in the same sense others do, which often makes him look either refined or idiotic depending on your stance. To put it in terms you might more easily understand, he's basically Doran Martell. Only without a massive plan that we know of. 


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#51
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Oh, kk! Thanks for explaining

 

I read somewhere the UK can't vote for EU laws, (what I meant by being worse off in the two years), guess that's not true then

 

It'll just be really interesting to see esp considering the parallels between the avg brexit voter and the avg trump voter

 

like even labor "defectors" and "Reagan democrats" are similar in ways. 2016 is turning out to be very facinating


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#52
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Times are changing maybe? The lib Dem guys was railing on him for not being able to control his voters?

No-one listens to Lib Dems after they broke their promise on tuition fees.



#53
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No-one listens to Lib Dems after they broke their promise on tuition fees.


UKIP might go the same way cause now they're not 100% sure about the NHS payments

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#54
Aerion Brightflame

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UKIP might go the same way cause now they're not 100% sure about the NHS payments

 

Yeah... that money was never going to the NHS. That is simply not how the Tory party works, and given UKIP is primarily ex-Tories, it's not that parties aim either. It was true of them to say that that lump sum of money that we'd save could be spent on the EU, but it ignores a few things:

 

a) We got a large portion of the money we paid back as a rebate which was which I believe was given to us for specific uses within the UK. Namely infrastructure and travel in regions that otherwise couldn't afford or maintain it. Like everywhere in Wales north of Cardiff. Most of that money will have to go to maintaining those things, or letting them rot. It's not 'Free money'. 

 

b) The government has actively been sabotaging the NHS, not trying to save it, by slashing it's funding. What money was added usually added needless bureaucracy into it. All in an effort to make it look like a failure so they can justify privatising it and turning it into the US system essentially.  

 

Which is moronic because the NHS is one of the few things we as a nation should be proud of, it's an almost unrivalled institution and I believe is the second largest single employer in the world. I am certain it was the largest employer in Europe. And yet the Tories are trying to say 'funk that' and sell it off too benefit themselves and close friends who'd purchase it. 

 

Essentially, in this case I can happily say - If you actually bought into the idea that the Leave campaign was going to use that EU money solely on the NHS then you were an idiot for not looking into it further. 

 

It won't effect UKIP votership that much. The Tories did the same funking thing but they gained votes since the last election - Farage still essentially caused us to leave because he helped advocate for the issue for years (Unless Boris Johnson who was notably pro EU till Brexit), that will have earn him points no doubts


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#55
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Well yes, in some form or the other some of that money would return to the UK. But I guess I was just hoping to see them start to attempt to keep their promises to some degree. Which mind you hasn't been ruled out yet.

Will it earn him points though? It depends how and who uses the economic upsides from Brexit, and if they atleast put up the face of trying to keep to their word. Otherwise they publically become lying politicians. That's like Trump increasing immigration a quotas after he gets elected. People can't be that blind

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#56
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Farage is probably going to fade into irrelevance now - there's less of a reason to vote for his party now since its main aim was accomplished, not to mention it's been so badly run and riddled by infighting over the past years that it was losing support anyway. He's the one that instigated all this but now it's the time of even greater fools like Johnson and Gove.



#57
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Farage is probably going to fade into irrelevance now - there's less of a reason to vote for his party now since its main aim was accomplished, not to mention it's been so badly run and riddled by infighting over the past years that it was losing support anyway. He's the one that instigated all this but now it's the time of even greater fools like Johnson and Gove.

 

Was it losing support nationally?

 

In the Welsh elections UKIP was the only relevant party to gain seats. Even labour lost a couple of seats to UKIP. 

 

Well yes, in some form or the other some of that money would return to the UK. But I guess I was just hoping to see them start to attempt to keep their promises to some degree. Which mind you hasn't been ruled out yet.

Will it earn him points though? It depends how and who uses the economic upsides from Brexit, and if they atleast put up the face of trying to keep to their word. Otherwise they publically become lying politicians. That's like Trump increasing immigration a quotas after he gets elected. People can't be that blind

 

I mean we witnessed an area of Britain that gained among the most benefit from being in the EU voting in favour of leaving it. People who had no idea that the EU paid for that sort of thing, people who voted leave just to spite the government. We have people who once again voted to leave solely because of migrants (That remains one of the only reasons I think is outright idiotic to have voted Leave for.). People who voted the Tories in on promises of making the NHS stronger by staying. 

 

People really can be that f***ing stupid about politics, because a lot of people just don't bother to look into the issues or look at anything beyond single viewpoint media sources that spout half truths at them. People won't pay attention to anything until the actual election, buy into promises or rhetoric instead of anything concrete and vote without ever being thorough about it. 

 

Like look at Clinton in the US if you want an example of people being willingly blind just so they can say there candidate or there side won. 


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#58
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Was it losing support nationally?

 

In the Welsh elections UKIP was the only relevant party to gain seats. Even labour lost a couple of seats to UKIP. 

 

 

I mean we witnessed an area of Britain that gained among the most benefit from being in the EU voting in favour of leaving it. People who had no idea that the EU paid for that sort of thing, people who voted leave just to spite the government. We have people who once again voted to leave solely because of migrants (That remains one of the only reasons I think is outright idiotic to have voted Leave for.). People who voted the Tories in on promises of making the NHS stronger by staying. 

 

People really can be that f***ing stupid about politics, because a lot of people just don't bother to look into the issues or look at anything beyond single viewpoint media sources that spout half truths at them. People won't pay attention to anything until the actual election, buy into promises or rhetoric instead of anything concrete and vote without ever being thorough about it. 

 

Like look at Clinton in the US if you want an example of people being willingly blind just so they can say there candidate or there side won. 

 

Really? I was thinking that Trump was the better example than Clinton.

 

Anyways... well, hot damn. I went to bed last night thinking they would vote to remain and when I heard the news I was like oh s*** really?

 

Welp, let's see where this goes. 2 more years estimated of membership though.


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#59
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Really? I was thinking that Trump was the better example than Clinton.

 

Anyways... well, hot damn. I went to bed last night thinking they would vote to remain and when I heard the news I was like oh s*** really?

 

Welp, let's see where this goes. 2 more years estimated of membership though.

The Trump voters are actually stupid, not willingly stupid.



#60
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For the record, assuming that means 350->NHS isn't a logical conclusion. Hopefully some massive contributions do go to the NHS. 


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