Middle Earth Book Club

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

"If we're going to read The Silmarillion then we need to make sure that everyone has a copy. It is also worth noting whether you have read the book before or not. If someone hasn't read it before then we need to avoid spoilers.

 

I'm thinking that either

• after every chapter


• after every 'part' (whatever that means)


• or after we've all finished the book

that we would talk about the bit that we've collectively read together and pseudo-intellectualize about it.

 

What do you think, Winter and (parenthesis)?

 

EDIT: Oh and I have read it before, just so I'm following my own advice"

 

Convo between Giga, Speedroid, and me.

 

Basically we're gonna read Tolkein's middle earth peices and discuss about them. A book club of sorts

 

I wanted to make a thread in case anyone else wanted to read too. We'll keep up to date with where we are so y'all can jump in if/when you want ^_^

[~~~~]

Thanks for making this thread Winter. It's just gone midnight for me, so I may as well go to bed and start reading. I have to actually get up tomorrow so I won't read for very long. At some point tomorrow I will post here saying how far I read (in a spoiler so I don't spoil the story for those who haven't read it yet).

 

For clarification, we are reading The Silmarillion. If you read Lord of the Rings and enjoyed it, this is that on steroids. It is an epic about the early days of Middle Earth, about its creation and its fall from grace. It was compiled after Tolkien's death from his notes, so there are occasional inconsistencies with LotR and The Hobbit, both books that actually made Tolkien's 'final cut' so to speak. However, the story does describe the world in which LotR and The Hobbit are set, and many of the in-world myths that are referenced throughout both those books are explored in depth in The Silmarillion.

 

It's a fantastic read, and I welcome anyone who is a fan of Lord of the Rings to join us in reading it. It's a little harder to read than LotR, which is itself a little harder to read than The Hobbit, but so, so worth it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Let's read the Ainulindalë for today's bit :)

[~~~~]

Let's read the Ainulindalë for today's bit :)

Ok, I read that last night. Here are my thoughts. SPOILERS

 

[spoiler=Whenever you see a spoiler on this thread, it's probably a spoiler]My main question here is: what do the different "themes" of the Great Music represent? They clearly relate to the history of Eä, but what points in history do the new themes represent? We do have one straightforward answer. "For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had a part in their making." So clearly the second theme relates to some point before the coming of the Elves. Maybe the second theme relates to the first time Melkor is banished from Arda, since at this point it does describe Manwë as "the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor". Maybe it relates to the events of first chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion. I don't know.

 

On another note (b'dum tsh), I am surprised that the events of the Akallabêth did not get their own theme, but who knows, maybe that's the "one chord" that ends the Great Music. Although I think the "one chord" probably relates the End of Days.

 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Ok, I read that last night. Here are my thoughts. SPOILERS

 

[spoiler=Whenever you see a spoiler on this thread, it's probably a spoiler]My main question here is: what do the different "themes" of the Great Music represent? They clearly relate to the history of Eä, but what points in history do the new themes represent? We do have one straightforward answer. "For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had a part in their making." So clearly the second theme relates to some point before the coming of the Elves. Maybe the second theme relates to the first time Melkor is banished from Arda, since at this point it does describe Manwë as "the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor". Maybe it relates to the events of first chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion. I don't know.

 

On another note (b'dum tsh), I am surprised that the events of the Akallabêth did not get their own theme, but who knows, maybe that's the "one chord" that ends the Great Music. Although I think the "one chord" probably relates the End of Days.

 

[spoiler=resp]

 

Could it be each of the ages? He sang three times, and each time there was conflict, but lessening was Mekors power each time right? First Age, Second Age, Third Age?

 

"Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased"

 

Why stop the music if Mekor's creations were really not creations? If Melkor's discord was really part of Eru, then he should have been able to continue the song without break as it was to his design. In this a see a master hobble his creation in a fit of vanity 

 

Eru snuffing out Mekor's imagination in his desire for control might have damned middle earth to it's wars I'd think.

 

 

 

[~~~~]

[spoiler=resp]

 

Could it be each of the ages? He sang three times, and each time there was conflict, but lessening was Mekors power each time right? First Age, Second Age, Third Age?

 

"Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased"

 

Why stop the music if Mekor's creations were really not creations? If Melkor's discord was really part of Eru, then he should have been able to continue the song without break as it was to his design. In this a see a master hobble his creation in a fit of vanity 

 

Eru snuffing out Mekor's imagination in his desire for control might have damned middle earth to it's wars I'd think.

 

 

 

[spoiler=resp to resp]I thought it was the ages at first, but then it clearly says that the Children of Ilúvatar came with the 3rd theme. If it said that the 'Followers' (Men) came with the 3rd theme, then I'd genuinely consider this since the 3rd Age was when the power of the Elves was fading and Men were taking over more. However, it does refer to all Children of Ilúvatar, and I cannot see Elves in any way 'coming' with the 3rd Age, considering just how sparse their numbers were, and how the reach of their power basically only consisted of Rivendell and Lothlórien at that time. As for the real reasons why Ilúvatar introduced those new themes (seemingly to counteract Melkor's themes) and ended the music (seemingly out of anger at Melkor's intervention), I honestly have no idea. I hate to repeat Christian apologists' talking points, but maybe Ilúvatar works in mysterious ways? lol

 

 

Perhaps we can move on to reading my least favourite part of The Silmarillion, the Valaquenta? What do you think?

[~~~~]

bumping this because Winter is a lazy sheet who won't respond

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

bumping this because Winter is a lazy sheet who won't respond

Give me till after finals, I'll be regular then

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Let's get this sheet restarted Speedy

[~~~~]

Let's get this s*** restarted Speedy

ok, will read the valaquenta tonite

[~~~~]

Ok, read the valaquenta, and I actually really enjoyed it. The description of Ulmo really made me very happy because of my love for Paleozoics.

 

Next: Quenta Silmarillion chapter 1?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Ok, read the valaquenta, and I actually really enjoyed it. The description of Ulmo really made me very happy because of my love for Paleozoics.

 

Next: Quenta Silmarillion chapter 1?

I wonder if Varda's rejection of Melkor was the straw that broke the camel's back. First would be his humiliation at the song, and perhaps his failed attempts to find the fire imperishable, but this might have been the critical humiliation

 

Personally liked the description of Varda and Manwe's throne because of my love for the stars and kozmos

 

Bit shocked they didn't mention Mairon (sauron) in the section about Maiar given he was a very important one later one, and the strongest of them all.

 

It irritates me how they start off by calling both Sauron and Melkor as the enemies, because they certainly didn't start out that way. The shunning and spurning of their family had plenty to do with their eventual fall from grace. There's a fairly valid case you can make that Eru was the true villain in the story 

 

---

 

During this time, Mairon was as Eru had created him: good and uncorrupt. His greatest virtue was his love of order and perfection, disliking anything wasteful. However, this would also prove to be the source of his fall, for in the Dark Lord Morgoth, Mairon saw the will and power that would help him achieve his own goals and desires faster than if he had pursed them on his own.

 

Road to Hell is paved with good intentions?

 

Sure! 

[~~~~]

I wonder if Varda's rejection of Melkor was the straw that broke the camel's back. First would be his humiliation at the song, and perhaps his failed attempts to find the fire imperishable, but this might have been the critical humiliation 

Varda's rejection was possibly before the song. "Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him"

 

 

It irritates me how they start off by calling both Sauron and Melkor as the enemies, because they certainly didn't start out that way.

And the Valar didn't start off living in Valinor, but the Valaquenta talks about 

 

Varda and Manwe's throne

atop Taniquetil, so..?

 

The account is told from the elves' perspective. That's why Melkor and Sauron are listed as the Enemies. Anything about what Sauron was like before his fall could be explained away as being info that the Valar and Maiar never told the elves about.