Twilight Ninja Pendulums [ANIME]

[Hallohallo]

Twilight Ninja Jogen

DARK Level 7 Warrior/Pendulum/Effect

Pendulum Scale 1

Pendulum Effect: Once per turn: You can target 1 "Ninja" monster you control; if it attacks a Defense Position monster this turn, inflict piercing battle damage to your opponent.

-

Monster Effect: If this card attacks a Defense Position monster, inflict piercing battle damage to your opponent.

2000/1000

 

Twilight Ninja Kagen

DARK Level 1 Warrior/Pendulum/Effect

Pendulum Scale 10

Pendulum Effect: Once per turn, during either player's Main Phase or Battle Phase: You can replace this Pendulum Effect with the original Pendulum Effects of the card in your other Pendulum Zone, until the end of this turn. Once per turn: You can target 1 "Ninja" monster you control; it gains 500 ATK until the end of the Battle Phase (even if this card leaves the field).

-

Monster Effect: You can Tribute this card, then target 1 "Ninja" monster you control; it gains ?00 ATK.

0/2000

[Darj]

Jogen isn't impressive, except for its Scale 1, maybe.

 

But Kagen can enable shenanigans by effectively playing around OPTs and hard OPTs on Pendulum effects; not to mention it would be searchable by Where Arf Thou, ROTA, etc.

Also, if printed as it is, wouldn't it be the first card with a proper Spell Speed 2 Pendulum effect? I say "proper" because there are Pendulum effects that apply during both players turn, but they are written as Continuous effects, rather than Spell Speed 2 effects that start a chain. For instance, Dinomists, White Wing Magician.

If so, it would be nice from Konami to break the mold, plus it would act as precedence for card-making purposes.

[Carnwennan]

Jogen isn't impressive, except for its Scale 1, maybe.

 

But Kagen can enable shenanigans by effectively playing around OPTs and hard OPTs on Pendulum effects; not to mention it would be searchable by Where Arf Thou, ROTA, etc.

Also, if printed as it is, wouldn't it be the first card with a proper Spell Speed 2 Pendulum effect? I say "proper" because there are Pendulum effects that apply during both players turn, but they are written as Continuous effects, rather than Spell Speed 2 effects that start a chain. For instance, Dinomists, White Wing Magician.

If so, it would be nice from Konami to break the mold, plus it would act as precedence for card-making purposes.

Stargazer Magician, Timegazer Magician, Magician's Left Hand and Magician's Right Hand had quick effects in the anime. They don't like giving quick effects to Spell Cards that aren't Quick-Plays and if Ancient City - Rainbow Ruins would be printed nowadays, it probably wouldn't have a quick effect.

[Progenitor]

Jogen isn't impressive, except for its Scale 1, maybe.

 

But Kagen can enable shenanigans by effectively playing around OPTs and hard OPTs on Pendulum effects; not to mention it would be searchable by Where Arf Thou, ROTA, etc.

Also, if printed as it is, wouldn't it be the first card with a proper Spell Speed 2 Pendulum effect? I say "proper" because there are Pendulum effects that apply during both players turn, but they are written as Continuous effects, rather than Spell Speed 2 effects that start a chain. For instance, Dinomists, White Wing Magician.

If so, it would be nice from Konami to break the mold, plus it would act as precedence for card-making purposes.

To be honest I have no idea how the ruling would work, but I'm inclined to believe that you could NOT get around hard OPT with it. The reason being is that hard OPT effects are specifically worded: "you can only use this effect of 'xxx' once per turn," while a copy effect "replaces this/this card's effect with that effect." Therefore, when you use the copied effect, you are still technically using the effect of "xxx," even though it is not "xxx" using the effect itself in that specific instance, and so you could only use that effect once, regardless of which one uses it.

 

But Konami likes to be dumb with rulings sometimes so idk if the interaction would actually be intuitive or not.

[Darj]

To be honest I have no idea how the ruling would work, but I'm inclined to believe that you could NOT get around hard OPT with it. The reason being is that hard OPT effects are specifically worded: "you can only use this effect of 'xxx' once per turn," while a copy effect "replaces this/this card's effect with that effect." Therefore, when you use the copied effect, you are still technically using the effect of "xxx," even though it is not "xxx" using the effect itself in that specific instance, and so you could only use that effect once, regardless of which one uses it.

 

But Konami likes to be dumb with rulings sometimes so idk if the interaction would actually be intuitive or not.

 

It depends on the approach and wording they use if/when they print it, really. For example, If they go for a wording like Darklords or "Spellbook of the Master", then it should be able to effectively bypass hard OPT clauses.

 

 

 

 

Stargazer Magician, Timegazer Magician, Magician's Left Hand and Magician's Right Hand had quick effects in the anime. They don't like giving quick effects to Spell Cards that aren't Quick-Plays and if Ancient City - Rainbow Ruins would be printed nowadays, it probably wouldn't have a quick effect.

 

Ah, I didn't know there were already Pendulum and Continuous Spell effects from the anime that were converted from Spell Speed 2 to Continuous effects. Then, should be safe to say this card will get such treatment as well.

[Carnwennan]

To be honest I have no idea how the ruling would work, but I'm inclined to believe that you could NOT get around hard OPT with it. The reason being is that hard OPT effects are specifically worded: "you can only use this effect of 'xxx' once per turn," while a copy effect "replaces this/this card's effect with that effect." Therefore, when you use the copied effect, you are still technically using the effect of "xxx," even though it is not "xxx" using the effect itself in that specific instance, and so you could only use that effect once, regardless of which one uses it.

 

But Konami likes to be dumb with rulings sometimes so idk if the interaction would actually be intuitive or not.

It would need to copy the name like CXyz Barian Hope does for that restriction to apply to it. An example of a card that doesn't copy the name and is thus able to get around it is Spellbook of the Master.

Got ninja'ed in a thread about Ninja cards.

[Progenitor]

It would need to copy the name like CXyz Barian Hope does for that restriction to apply to it. An example of a card that doesn't copy the name and is thus able to get around it is Spellbook of the Master.

Got ninja'ed in a topic about Ninja cards.

Actually, the reason you can use Spellbook of the Master on things like Spellbook of Power is because Power is a hard OPT on ACTIVATON rather than on the effect:

You can only activate 1 "Spellbook of Power" per turn.

Now if it was instead:

You can only use the effect of "Spellbook of Power" once per turn

Then, to my understanding, Master could not target Power since it specifically copies the effect of Power, which was already used previously that turn. However, it's worded as the former, so since the activation of Master is NOT the same as activating a second copy of Power, everything works out ok even though you are, essentially, using Power's effect twice.

[Carnwennan]

Actually, the reason you can use Spellbook of the Master on things like Spellbook of Power is because Power is a hard OPT on ACTIVATON rather than on the effect:

Now if it was instead:

Then, to my understanding, Master could not target Power since it specifically copies the effect of Power, which was already used previously that turn. However, it's worded as the former, so since the activation of Master is NOT the same as activating a second copy of Power, everything works out ok even though you are, essentially, using Power's effect twice.

That is also a reason. Anyway, to avoid making a five-word long post, I hope these get effects related to "Ninjitsu Art" cards when printed to tie together the two relevant aspects of the "Ninja" archetype.

[Tinkerer]

I'm personally intrigued at the fact Kagen is scale 10.  A quick search of Ninja cards on 'pro shows that there aren't any level 9 Ninjas which would imply 1 of 2 things:

1. They make/plan to make a level 9 Ninja

2. They keep this as a generic Scale 10

 

As for Jogen... It is pretty awful all things considered.

[~~~~]

Lol Kagen would be so good if it was printed as is

[I Hate Snatch Steal]

To be honest I have no idea how the ruling would work, but I'm inclined to believe that you could NOT get around hard OPT with it. The reason being is that hard OPT effects are specifically worded: "you can only use this effect of 'xxx' once per turn," while a copy effect "replaces this/this card's effect with that effect." Therefore, when you use the copied effect, you are still technically using the effect of "xxx," even though it is not "xxx" using the effect itself in that specific instance, and so you could only use that effect once, regardless of which one uses it.

 

But Konami likes to be dumb with rulings sometimes so idk if the interaction would actually be intuitive or not.

For what its worth, YGO pro's scripting language supports this interpretation of hard OPTs and OPDs