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Sexism in the Yugioh Community


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#1
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I hate to post this in debates, because I'd much rather it be just a PSA. But it's a topic that is (sadly) very controversial and I'd rather the mods didn't have to move it. 



#2
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*Watches video*

 

*Agrees*

 

What're we debating? Whether or not to be a creepy dipshit to women at card game events?

 

On another note, the comments section brought up a Azneyes video related to the one in the OP, and am completely unsurprised that so many people are defending that dipshit objectifying female players.


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#3
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again, I didn't want to post it in debates, but debates has basically become "general but for controversial topics"



#4
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Debates is actually listed as:

 

Debates

A place for debates and controversial topics.
 
Although in practice topics that were controversial and weren't debates have been locked for not being debates. *shrugs*
 
In any competitive atmosphere, there are those willing to stoop to low tactics in order to get an edge. It is harder to play competitive chess as a woman, much fewer do and fewer still succeed at a high level. I imagine the same holds true for YGO for similar reasons. There has never, for instance, been a female winner of an SJC/YCS/World Championship.
 
Physiological differences have to be acknowledged. I don't favour sexual harassment, but it is inevitable in a male-dominated scene replete with players ready to do whatever it takes to win.


#5
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(That's technically why Debates was made; well, mostly for people to post political stuff without having it spread to the status bar or the General area. If Dad locks the topic, it's usually because it got derailed it to the point where a civil discussion is near impossible. Ask him for the specifics)

 

To be fair though, I don't think I've ever seen females playing Yugioh IRL (even for casual play), or if there are, the number is very few. Last time I went to my card dealer (which was about a year ago), didn't see any female players there (well, maybe not counting the store employees); all of them were males.

 

But yeah, if you want women to actually play this game (or in the case of some people asking for a female main for future anime series), then don't be an asshole towards them (meaning, you treat them like actual people and not as "objects")

 

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As far as this site goes, I haven't seen too many female players posting in TCG (or even CC for that matter) during my time here (or least in recent days). 


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#6
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As far as this site goes, I haven't seen too many female players posting in TCG (or even CC for that matter) during my time here (or least in recent days).

Dementuo, Koko, Shard, Toyo, Sleepy, Kate, Kanashimi, that time Darkness pretended to be his own girlfriend

But I digress. Ratio is still way off.

This is also a bit of a concern in MTG. The issue largely originates the same way all the gamergate bullshit did. Lots of guys consider these games to be a sort of sanctum, with the general lack of cultural acceptance giving them a sort of feeling of exclusivity. When more people enter the sphere (especially those who are significantly different) they feel like it is some sort of intrusion, or an attack on their hobby.

This aggression, combined with a general lack of knowledge toward social conventions and a habit toward all-around creepiness, turn a lot of females off of the hobby, even if the activity itself may interest them. This obviously only serves to exacerbate the issue.

MTG does have some notable high-notoriety female players, such as Melissa DelTora, but even then the ratio is totally fucked. DelTora has talked before about how much more difficult it is to gain notoriety and reach the pro tour as a female. Sometimes skill simply isn't enough when so many people don't want you there.

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#7
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The ratio really isn't "off" though, it's spot-on. We shouldn't expect women who don't want to play these games to do so. The "creepy, aggressive males are driving away all the female players" narrative is porous.

 

A) Female interest in gaming isn't proportionate to male interest and never has been. It isn't there initially when a new game is introduced either, so it isn't a matter of their numbers being equal and then diminished. 

 

B) Creepiness and aggression aren't exclusively male traits, nor are females the only ones capable of being offput by creepy and aggressive behaviour. Those with thinner skins have thinner skins. Competition does not reward sensitivity. 

 

C) The rules of the game are equal for everyone. Lack of female initiative and success is inevitably on those females who haven't tried and haven't succeeded. Those who are playing can keep up the good fight, and if they are as good or better than their male opponents they have every opportunity to prove it that their male counterparts do, they have every opportunity that Jeff Jones does. No woman has ever won an SJC, World Championship, or YCS. It's on them to woman up. 



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The ratio really isn't "off" though, it's spot-on. We shouldn't expect women who don't want to play these games to do so. The "creepy, aggressive males are driving away all the female players" narrative is porous.

 

A) Female interest in gaming isn't proportionate to male interest and never has been. It isn't there initially when a new game is introduced either, so it isn't a matter of their numbers being equal and then diminished. 

 

B) Creepiness and aggression aren't exclusively male traits, nor are females the only ones capable of being offput by creepy and aggressive behaviour. Those with thinner skins have thinner skins. Competition does not reward sensitivity. 

 

C) The rules of the game are equal for everyone. Lack of female initiative and success is inevitably on those females who haven't tried and haven't succeeded. Those who are playing can keep up the good fight, and if they are as good or better than their male opponents they have every opportunity to prove it that their male counterparts do, they have every opportunity that Jeff Jones does. No woman has ever won an SJC, World Championship, or YCS. It's on them to woman up. 

That's because not only is it a male dominated space, it's an anti-female space. Guys get angry whenever girls try to enter their boys' club and get especially angry when girls are better at their hobbies than they are. Acting like women simply don't want to play these games is ignoring all the social and societal factors at work here. Girls are deterred from playing these games because it's "for boys", and even if a girl does continue on with it she's met by a player base that predominantly doesn't want her there. Sometimes even if she is welcomed she has to wade through oceans of creepy guys who only see her as a sex object because she's a "nerd girl", but also don't want to respect her as a legitimate player. 


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#9
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That's because not only is it a male dominated space, it's an anti-female space. Guys get angry whenever girls try to enter their boys' club and get especially angry when girls are better at their hobbies than they are. Acting like women simply don't want to play these games is ignoring all the social and societal factors at work here. Girls are deterred from playing these games because it's "for boys", and even if a girl does continue on with it she's met by a player base that predominantly doesn't want her there. Sometimes even if she is welcomed she has to wade through oceans of creepy guys who only see her as a sex object because she's a "nerd girl", but also don't want to respect her as a legitimate player. 

not to mention that females are become increasingly present in the gaming community, may it be tabletop, TCGs, or video games. It isn't because the activity is becoming more conducive toward them, it is because the community and society is. This shows that it isn't because "they don't want to" rather it is a matter of "they didn't realize it was an option".

 

Yes, Polaris, you don't need to be accepted by people to excel in a given task. That is obvious, and dodging the point. What it does take to reach that point is dedication, and people are a hell of a lot more likely to dedicate their time, money, and skills to an activity where the people actually want them there. Of course it is possible for someone to push forward in spite of these issues, but that doesn't mean they should have to overcome much of anything to be accepted doing what they love.


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#10
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That's because not only is it a male dominated space, it's an anti-female space. Guys get angry whenever girls try to enter their boys' club and get especially angry when girls are better at their hobbies than they are. Acting like women simply don't want to play these games is ignoring all the social and societal factors at work here. Girls are deterred from playing these games because it's "for boys", and even if a girl does continue on with it she's met by a player base that predominantly doesn't want her there. Sometimes even if she is welcomed she has to wade through oceans of creepy guys who only see her as a sex object because she's a "nerd girl", but also don't want to respect her as a legitimate player. 

 
I dug to find the most successful competitive female YGO player I could (New Zealand's national champion and a Top 16 at the 2006 World Championships - Cindie Uddstrom). If anyone can find a better one, I encourage them to do so. Anyway, there's a stark contrast between her real-life experiences and your fabricated generalizations that happen to fit a certain narrative.
 
Here are some of the things Cindie Uddstrom had to say:
 
“The guys are great too!”  
“[Opponents] usually start out thinking I'm a pushover. That is, once they get over the surprise that I actually play. That works to my advantage, though. It only works on people I don’t know, and in places where my reputation has not preceded me.”
“The guys here are all too focused on the game, so even the tight jeans and leaning over the table trick doesn’t work. Being female is not really an advantage. It’s not a disadvantage either, though.  
 

 

 

Yes, Polaris, you don't need to be accepted by people to excel in a given task. That is obvious, and dodging the point. 

 

Then it's a good thing I never said anything that could be reasonably paraphrased as such - your stating the obvious and point-dodging is your own.

 

I don't think females are any less wanted or accepted in the competitive YGO scene than males, because: 

 

A) Competitive players don't show up to events to make their opponents feel wanted and accepted, they're there to eliminate opponents till they're the last one left holding the trophy and prize card.   

B) People who lose get salty and make excuses.

 

not to mention that females are become increasingly present in the gaming community, may it be tabletop, TCGs, or video games. It isn't because the activity is becoming more conducive toward them, it is because the community and society is. This shows that it isn't because "they don't want to" rather it is a matter of "they didn't realize it was an option".

 

A) Citation needed.

B) Cindy Uddstrom topped at Worlds over a decade ago - if any female YGO player's done as well please direct me to them and we'll see if what they have to say is much different. If progress is in fact being made with regards to females feeling accepted and integrated into communities like YGO's and Uddstrom acknowledged being a female as neither an advantage nor disadvantage back then, then there's no excuse for those females attributing a lack of success to sexism now. 

 

Loosely-related personal anecdote in which I was creepy

 

Being underhanded is much more frowned upon at such events than being a female, and for every guy playing YGO that'd demean an opponent for being female there's a throng who'd jump to her defence. I don't think anyone here would stand for "you shouldn't play YGO because you're a girl", and it's certainly not something I've ever heard. It'd take some nerve to say such a thing in this day and age. 



#11
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That article is more than a decade old, things change, and I'd argue that in the general gaming community things have gotten worse for women not better. Also for every Cindy Uddstrom, there's at least one RescueCatDuelist. Just bringing up one example, and saying "You're wrong this woman had a good experience so there's no such thing as sexism in the Yu-Gi-Oh community!" is a flawed argument and you know it.

 

Like sexism was one of the reasons I don't play this game anymore, and it's not something that you can just handwave as competitive players trying to intimidate their opponents (which I can tell you from experience is very different). Even playing casually you still get the same type of attitudes, and honestly, it's exhausting. Why should anybody want to keep playing when people immediately get hostile with you, or they're just trying to get into your pants the whole time.

 

As someone who has presented as both male and female in both a competitive and casual scene the attitudes you get from players is vastly different sometimes depending on whether or not you're a man or a woman.

 

Sure they're are guys who aren't like that, and I wouldn't even go so far to say as it's a majority of people who act like that, but it is a large enough portion of the player base for it be a problem. 


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#12
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I haven't done anything with YGO in a long time, but this topic has made me think of the CCG that I do play, Hearthstone. Giga mentioned MtG having the same issues, and with Hearthstone the only notable female players I can think of are Eloise and Hafu, the latter of whom is mostly an Arena player and streamer now and isn't actually seen in the competitive scene often. Even with Hearthstone's digital format, the pro scene is pretty much all males.


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#13
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Mmm~

 

I've met a few girls who play, but they're all younger than me, or don't play competitively. Probably for fear of that kind of harassment. I know enough creepy players that I get why they don't want to go near a convention. Not to mention there are tons of really weird folks you can meet just going to the card shop. Almost makes going to Target for random cards more worth your time. Hell, I don't go to tournaments because it's a toxic atmosphere. Any girl who goes there and doesn't have one hell of a punching arm is not going to have any fun.


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#14
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Mmm~

 

I've met a few girls who play, but they're all younger than me, or don't play competitively. Probably for fear of that kind of harassment. I know enough creepy players that I get why they don't want to go near a convention. Not to mention there are tons of really weird folks you can meet just going to the card shop. Almost makes going to Target for random cards more worth your time. Hell, I don't go to tournaments because it's a toxic atmosphere. Any girl who goes there and doesn't have one hell of a punching arm is not going to have any fun.

 

So every tournament is like this?


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#15
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That article is more than a decade old, things change, and I'd argue that in the general gaming community things have gotten worse for women not better. Also for every Cindy Uddstrom, there's at least one RescueCatDuelist. Just bringing up one example, and saying "You're wrong this woman had a good experience so there's no such thing as sexism in the Yu-Gi-Oh community!" is a flawed argument and you know it.

 

I didn't say there was no sexism in the Yu-Gi-Oh community, but those who exaggerate sexism as a general attitude prohibitive to their success or ability to even show up are making irrational excuses. 

 

Why should anybody want to keep playing when people immediately get hostile with you, or they're just trying to get into your pants the whole time.

 

To be the best and reap the glory.

 

Anyone with the inclination and ability to do so can prove it. Very few women even try to, and that's the only reason they aren't the ones dominating events. Hostility, condescension and lasciviousness weren't prohibitive to Cindie Uddstrom, and won't be prohibitive to the eventual female who does have the will and the skill to win a major Yu-Gi-Oh event. 



#16
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to start with, as cimo says, you cant argue with feelings, which is why i'll be disregarding much of the feeling bits. i can't tell you how to feel, and i really don't care either. that said, if you have a deck, then sit in front of me, and let's duel. it's that simple. if you're a good duelist, then your gender will only matter for the first turn, if even that.

 

I didn't say there was no sexism in the Yu-Gi-Oh community, but those who exaggerate sexism as a general attitude prohibitive to their success or ability to even show up are making irrational excuses. 

 

 

To be the best and reap the glory.

 

Anyone with the inclination and ability to do so can prove it. Very few women even try to, and that's the only reason they aren't the ones dominating events. Hostility, condescension and lasciviousness weren't prohibitive to Cindie Uddstrom, and won't be prohibitive to the eventual female who does have the will and the skill to win a major Yu-Gi-Oh event. 

this is basically my opinion in a nutshell on the topic.

 

but for another side of that nut; if you want to play recreational, and the current scene in your area doesn't suit you, then gather people like you, and make your own scene, it's not that hard. the people at my local card shop suck, there's no getting around it, they rule shark, price gouge, and some (i.e. not all) are generally a******s who rip off even children to get what they want. so, me and a few friends, decided to play yugioh at a local library instead, we made our own space, that suited what we wanted from the game, that was 7 years ago, today, our library is essentially acknowledged as a second "shop", with 8-10 core visitors any given weekend (less atm, but it's winter atm, and mother nature hates us), and multiple others who visit from time to time. cycling through all types, both new and old players. it's even got it's own tournaments now (prizes and all, provided directly from TCGplayer) and even players from the main shop coming by to have a few matches and/or trades from people who simply can't be bothered to drop by that hellhole called the original shop, on a regular basis. we even teach younger and returning players the new rules of the game, bringing them up to speed and giving them assistance building decks and getting extra stuff (like sleeves and boxes). we hated the way our local card shot was, so instead of complaining, and expecting the peoplethere to change, we did our own thing, carved our own spot in a different area, and as of now, are home to one of the best places to play yugioh in my city (imo), long story short, if you want a space that's just for you (in relation to yugioh) make one. it's hella hard, contradictory to the second line, but if you've done it, in regards to anything, then you understand the contradiction. and it takes a while, but it's the best way to make sure what you want is what you get.

 

 

 

onto my second point. if you want to top an event, bring your best deck and listen only to your ambition.

"C) The rules of the game are equal for everyone. Lack of female initiative and success is inevitably on those females who haven't tried and haven't succeeded. "

is rather accurate to describe why women aren't topping. rarely do they play the game on a competitive level, and the few who do, according to you guys, are easily discouraged, that's not a male problem, that's a lack of ambition. there aren't too many women at my local shop or at my library, less than 8 total from what i've seen, but the ones who *do* go are as thick skinned as the rest of us, and aren't afraid to put anybody in their place if somebody steps out of bounds, and those are the kinds of women i want in yugioh, people who know that the group they're entering is already established, and can respect as much while establishing their own place in the fold. not the ones who want "men" to fix everything. yes, there is a barrier, but it's not hard to cross if you stop telling others to bridge it for you. and if you don't like what's on the other side, then why not make your own side, with people you enjoy being around,

 

 

minor nitpicks in the video aside from the main point above

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#17
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Locking this thread since it's clearly just giving a platform for people to spread their disgusting views.

 

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