Thoughts on new types

[Atypical-Abbie]

I wanted to share some thoughts about how types are represented in this game and what new types mean, since we are getting our 3rd new type now. So, the first new type was Psychic-Type, then Wyrm-Type and now Cyverse-Type, and the first question one will ask is why make a new type at all?

 

Well, firstly there are certain monsters who simply don't fit into other types, and even some that are in that type which doesn't seem to make all that much sense. The same goes for Attributes as well, Machines tend to get a lot of EARTH monsters, but what on earth do robots have to do with dirt, plants or the ground?

 

Not much, but they compromise this to make less types and Attributes that seem arbitrary, and for the most part, this is fine, however that brings me to the next thing that would be a reason to make a new type, the ones they have are oversaturated or cause issues do to certain cards simply making things too complex to keep a hold on before balance becomes an issue, or they want to start of fresh with whole new ideas that would conflict with the themes or balance that was put in place for that type. It's simply much easier to make a new type than to have to always work around the similar type.

 

The argument against this is for the most part that it is simply unnecessary when they could work into those types still and that it takes away from the other type and what potential it could do with those cards. This point is one which I am uncertain about myself, and the primary reason I made this topic, because I do like the idea of types being able to make things that were previously not easy to put into other types available without making the monster and its type mismatch but require it to be that way since other options simply won't cut it.

 

While thinking about this, I thought about what people say when these types come up and that they are taking away from other types and that those should deserve these cards instead. What I find amusing about this statement is that those types already have plenty of cards already, think about it, the ones people bring up for Psychic-Type are typically Warrior or Spellcaster, but those are some of the most oversaturated types in the whole game, and the same goes for Wyrm-Type, where Dragons still remain the posterchild for the game even to this day, and now Cyverse-Type has Machine-Types which are again a huge type already. It would be another thing if this came from unsupported types like Thunder and Reptile.

 

Lastly, you have to remember that the game has gone on for a long time and that trying to keep an old game fresh means you have to do things which everybody is not necessarily going to like the same, if this means making new types, changing the rules, whatever, remember to keep an open mind about this, and that there's nothing stopping you from simply never using them in the first place and that complaining about it won't make them go away, that giving them a chance may change your mind on some things.

[Blake]

Cyverse has taken from warriors, spellcasters, insects, machines, psychics, arguably wyrms/dragons, beasts, and thunders

 

it is hardly just machines

[Atypical-Abbie]

Cyverse has taken from warriors, spellcasters, insects, machines, psychics, arguably wyrms/dragons, beasts, and thunders

 

it is hardly just machines

Well, all types probably have a little bit of every other type in there sometimes, but it's made very clear what Cyverse are about, computers, digital and cybernetics, they still share those themes, as well as using other themes as well. Those could probably be Machines instead 95% of the time, which is why that's what I stated.

[Blake]

Well, all types probably have a little bit of every other type in there sometimes, but it's made very clear what Cyverse are about, computers, digital and cybernetics, they still share those themes, as well as using other themes as well. Those could probably be Machines instead 95% of the time, which is why that's what I stated.

Except it's not.

 

Cyberse is clearly an archetype put under a type. Half of them don't look remotely like machines, and those that do fit just as easily into other brackets. Draconet, Link Spider, and the floating one are the only ones that seem really close to machines, and all of them could easily fit into another type just as easily as machine.

 

It's a stupid excuse for a type.

[Darj]

I'm fine with new Types as long as the are not redundant. For example, I find Psychic-Type a good addition because it covers the themes of research, technology (e.g. cyborgs, androids) and non magic-based powers (e.g. mind control, telekinesis, etc.) and even non-ghost or spirit ethereal forms (e.g. monsters like Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit, Lifeforce Harmonizer and Re-Cover) that before were covered by the Spellcaster (e.g. Mutant Mindmaster, Mind of Air) or Machine (e.g Jinzo) type, and I'm pretty sure most agree those monsters could pass as Psychic-Type.

 

But, new Types aren't as appealing for me when they end up as redundant, as it is the case of Wyrms, which are practically Dragons that don't get Dragon-Type support, and Cyberse, which as mentioned above are borrowing a lot from other Types, and any monster with a digital or cybernetic theme could very well have been either Machine or Psychic Type.

 

I find ironic how Konami started with so many Types, and even one that I find a bit too specific, Sea Serpent, and yet they still decide to add more Types that fall on redundancy.

 

 

Mildly off-topic but, on the other hand, what I would like to have is more Attributes instead. Specifically, I'm longing for a Neutral/Normal/Clear Attribute. The Neutral/Normal element has presence in many games, from Pokemon to RPGs here and there; Konami often treats the EARTH attribute as Neutral, but in some cases... it doesn't fit that well, and that's where the Neutral element would come in. It is also related to TC's point on the EARTH Machines: while one could argue that they are related to the Earth element because of their metal composition, which originates from earth, IMO a Neutral element would be more fitting for those monsters. Moreover, there are many monsters I can think of that could be Neutral element instead Earth or in some cases Light when they have a crystal theme; mainly EARTH Warriors that don't appear to have any affinity or power over the Earth element, and Gem-knights should be a clear would-be Neutral element archetype. Heck, even the anime has the "Clear" archetype that has no Attribute; those could have this Neutral attribute I speak about, instead of DARK.

[VCR_CAT]

Compared to other newer types, such as Psychics or Wyrms, you see the same deal of "But why isn't it just X type?" Psychics taking from spellcaster/warrior/machine and Wyrms just... being dragons. Cyberse has some benefit in design of "Oh, they're digital monsters" and how they appear in that way.

 

I mean, there's only a few types that actually stay consistent in how their monsters appear, and even in something as simple as "Warrior" you see giant hamburgers and and giant Hanafuda cards. Cyberse, from what I can tell, is meant to capture basically that TRON feel which, honestly, doesn't really fit other types.

 

As for now, of course it's going to look like its own Archetype. That's how Psychics started, and look at them now. I'd honestly wait for more than just a set and a Structure Deck before going "Wtf it's just an archetype for a type".

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

It has been stated before that Cyberse (that is the name for the record, not cyverse) are based on programming, with occasional exceptions (I'm looking at you, carpet bomb dragon or whateverthefuck you are called, and stargrails). It very clearly has its own niche. If differences like this aren't significant enough, then quite frankly this isn't the point to start complaining. Why does Beast-Warrior exist? Sea-Serpent? Wyrm? Psychic? Thunder?

 

The game is as it is. Creating a new type allows for control over the purview of support cards made (like an archetype), while also allowing archetypes (such as stargrail) to take advantage of said support. This level of control allows them to create a game that is more suited to play. Though it may be flavorfully annoying, flavor should be the least of one's priorities when considering game design like this. For someone with as much CC experience as yourself, I can't imagine this could be lost on you.

[Blake]

It has been stated before that Cyberse (that is the name for the record, not cyverse) are based on programming, with occasional exceptions (I'm looking at you, carpet bomb dragon or whateverthefuck you are called, and stargrails). It very clearly has its own niche. If differences like this aren't significant enough, then quite frankly this isn't the point to start complaining. Why does Beast-Warrior exist? Sea-Serpent? Wyrm? Psychic? Thunder?

 

The game is as it is. Creating a new type allows for control over the purview of support cards made (like an archetype), while also allowing archetypes (such as stargrail) to take advantage of said support. This level of control allows them to create a game that is more suited to play. Though it may be flavorfully annoying, flavor should be the least of one's priorities when considering game design like this. For someone with as much CC experience as yourself, I can't imagine this could be lost on you.

That's flimsy logic, at best.

 

Cyberse has no reason to be a type. That is a theme typical of an archetype, and the wide array of monsters included in it showcases this further. The cards work with one another like a deck of the sort, and it seems like they made the type to simply avoid clunky naming.

 

The fact that Topological and Aurum exist only serves to show that it serves more as an archetype that happens to include some exceptions because reasons.

 

Allowing archetypes to reap the benefits of something with a clear flavor theme, thus making things that are not in that theme, is just poor design. And while flavor may not be a top contender, it's still not something you should ignore outright, especially not right out of the gate.

 

It feels more like a last minute design change, which seems even more apparent when Aurum is the only Stargrail to change typing when he evolves. Sure, blahblah main character, but it still feels out of place, and shows how much the type is like PSychic + Machine + EVERYTHING, which feels more archetypical.

 

Hell, it could have even been an Archfiend-esque archetype, and it would still make more sense than as a type.

[Darj]

Also you have Psychics already reaching the programming or virtual niche, for example with Krebons.

Thunder-Type works for me because it fills the niche of sentient energy or amorphous things that aren't exactly liquid, like the obvious thunder, also light, air or gas beings, and plasma.

As for Beast-Warriors, I dare to say it's somewhat redundant as well; really, any Beast-Warrior could have been either Beast or Warrior. However, the type is so developed by now that I find difficult to imagine YGO without it.

 

Black beat me to it, but Stargrails only have 1 Cyberse-Type, Aurum, whose Normal version happens to be... yeah, Psychic-Type, while the other 2 Normal Star Grails retained their Types.

 

And while I get the point of introducing a new Type for controlling the support on a set of cards while allowing for a bit more of flexibility, still, making said card set as an archetype should be just as effective for controlling it.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

If anything, that is a problem with Aurum, not with cyberse.

 

And it obviously won't be "just an archetype" as time passes. We have seen one set and one structure deck. To think that is indicative of the type as a whole is just naive.

 

Take Draconet, for example. It isn't cyberse support. It is a generic card. Same goes for the majority, in fact.

[Blake]

If anything, that is a problem with Aurum, not with cyberse.

 

And it obviously won't be "just an archetype" as time passes. We have seen one set and one structure deck. To think that is indicative of the type as a whole is just naive.

 

Take Draconet, for example. It isn't cyberse support. It is a generic card. Same goes for the majority, in fact.

Zombies exist. They're basically an archetype, too, at this point.

 

Even if it's not exactly an archetype, it still feels more like an Archfiend-esque example than a type.

 

Having a theme of "programming" does not neccesitate a type, especially when only 1-2 of their members are decidedly machine. I'd say it more takes from Psychic and randoms (2 insects thus far), many of which hardly need to be derived of members.

 

Draconet is a bad example. Whip Viper clearly isn't Performapal support. Same goes for a good amount of Ppal, especially the earlier cards.

 

Introducing a new archetype or equivalent isn't a big investment. A new type is a big deal, especially when a lot of old types still lack support.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Wyrm was only created cause they were scared of rulers and redmd

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

There is also a matter of what it means in regards to the anime.

 

I am pretty sure Yuzaku isn't the only one with Cyberse cards. It may not make sense for so much emphasis to be placed on cyber tech (to the point of making it an entire type) right now, but from the limited view we have of Vrains, it seems it will be an overarching theme, where such support and designation only makes sense.

 

Like, it is definitely annoying that they are making a new type when the 73 types we already have are often neglected in favor of archetypal support, and purely from a game design perspective it absolutely could have been an archetype instead, but that doesn't invalidate the reasons it exists.

[Sleepy]

I'd say right now it is better that way.

Archetypes shouldn't have taken so much priority in the game IMO.

We have 6 Attributes plus 20 of the original Types for a total of 120 combinations of support.

That's before the factors of ATK/DEF ranges and/or Levels (4 out of 12 which are light and easy to splash inherently).

 

The game could still design synergy between intended members and keep it semi-generic for the sake of feeling like the pool can be toyed and explored with more.

I'm not saying Archetypes absolutely can't exist, but they are often the more lazy way to assure control over what can be done with the cards. 

Personally, I have a lot more fun with decks like Plant Synchro or the new Dinosaurs that are just good generic support that can potentially be played with future cards of said traits.

 

The opposite of late GX era cards pretty much. 

 

 

Little difference does it make if it is an archetype or a type, really. For what purpose would Cyberse be better as an archetype? Does it really matter that the type list grows? Some people don't seem to care that the ban&limit list shrinks by letting go of outdated cards they forgot about, but that's a bigger priority IMO.

Meanwhile looking at MTG they have random typing differences like Zombies and Vampires, or Plants and Treefolks, or even Beast-Type and Donkey-Type. I think we can be more lenient about it...

 

I've seen people talking about older cards that never shone as failed mechanics the game needs to move on from. I think old OG types are more or less that too. Konami wasn't the best at designing the initial model of the game. Many rules required clarifications asked over the years to sometimes messy answers. Its first TCG set included all types of monsters but no differing support for either and no sense of balance or identity among them whatsoever, cards outclassed by others within the same set, and a list of good to banable cards being the only good and high rarity ones that weren't just bait for kids to get into the franchise. I'd say by now they've made a pretty good job at elaborating each type/Attribute  out there for the most part but that is most likely just them working with what they've got because they can't exactly turn back.

 

 

I'd like to have a Clear Attribute, and Thunder would have been better as an Attribute. 
and Hungry Burger would have fit Fiend more than Warrior, although they probably didn't want yet another DARK Fiend Level 6.... There's an idea of niches we still lack. Food Type would be hilarious to have, and any non-magic, non-elemental, human is NOT necessarily a Warrior..... They compromise but we could use something there even if we don't quite know what.

 

 

[Darj]

I'd like to have a Clear Attribute, and Thunder would have been better as an Attribute. 

and Hungry Burger would have fit Fiend more than Warrior, although they probably didn't want yet another DARK Fiend Level 6.... There's an idea of niches we still lack. Food Type would be hilarious to have, and any non-magic, non-elemental, human is NOT necessarily a Warrior..... They compromise but we could use something there even if we don't quite know what.

 

IMO that's where Psychic-Type comes in for humans with roles of scientists or engineers, due to its "science & technology" theme. Maybe that's why Metalfoes and Star Grail Chosen are Psychic-Type.

And the idea of Thunder as an Attribute puzzled me at first but then it some sense; I guess you would simply turn currently Thunder-Type monsters like the Hunders into Warriors, and Sea Horse into Sea Serpent.

[Sleepy]

IMO that's where Psychic-Type comes in for humans with roles of scientists or engineers, due to its "science & technology" theme. Maybe that's why Metalfoes and Star Grail Chosen are Psychic-Type.

And the idea of Thunder as an Attribute puzzled me at first but then it some sense; I guess you would simply turn currently Thunder-Type monsters like the Hunders into Warriors, and Sea Horse into Sea Serpent.

 

Thunder comment I made is a "should have been" kind of comment. The game has too much build in there nowadays to make a change to the current pool. They could probably add it with another word like lightning/electric/etc if they wanted to and have it exist the same way Aqua + WATER or FIRE + Pyro do. 

 

Yes many jobs can be placed into another type like plumber = aqua, fire fighter = aqua/warrior, electrician = thunder, cheff = pyro, the mentioned Warrior/Psychic ones, idols/singers/actors = Spellcaster/Fairy more or less, etc. Though it's compromising kind of.

 

 

I think in the past they would have been good to have dual type monsters too, and have some support affect only monsters that get a specific type combination, this would have made Beast-Warrior unnecessary and increased the pool of possibilities for what they could branch out of.

[Darj]

Thunder comment I made is a "should have been" kind of comment. The game has too much build in there nowadays to make a change to the current pool. They could probably add it with another word like lightning/electric/etc if they wanted to and have it exist the same way Aqua + WATER or FIRE + Pyro do.

 

Yeah, I meant that if Thunder Attribute had been a thing from the start, then monster like Hunders would be Warrior, Sea Horse would be Sea Serpent, Thunder Dragon as, well, Dragon, and so on.

 

Printed dual types, huh? Yeah, that would have allowed for the design of much more support approaches. I do remember some players thought Beast-Warrior was a dual type and got both Beast and Warrior support xD

They are still a possibility though, if Konami resorts to Harpie clauses that make monster treated of X Type at all times and all places.

[Sleepy]

Yeah, I meant that if Thunder Attribute had been a thing from the start, then monster like Hunders would be Warrior, Sea Horse would be Sea Serpent, Thunder Dragon as, well, Dragon, and so on.

 

Printed dual types, huh? Yeah, that would have allowed for the design of much more support approaches. I do remember some players thought Beast-Warrior was a dual type and got both Beast and Warrior support xD

They are still a possibility though, if Konami resorts to Harpie clauses that make monster treated of X Type at all times and all places.

 

But that's a condition that takes up a sentence of the card text like Light & Darkness Dragon, if they could like.... Just write the two types in the brackets instead, that'd make things easier.

[Darj]

But that's a condition that takes up a sentence of the card text like Light & Darkness Dragon, if they could like.... Just write the two types in the brackets instead, that'd make things easier.

 

 I would say that's possible, too. After all, OCG started printing nomi monsters and Normal monsters with a "Special Summon" and "Normal" sub-types respectively, so they could very well add a 2nd Type there... although IMO it would look clunky on the card. Can you imagine a, let's say, Spellcaster/Sea Serpent/Tuner/Pendulum/Synchro monster? xD

[Sleepy]

 I would say that's possible, too. After all, OCG started printing nomi monsters and Normal monsters with a "Special Summon" and "Normal" sub-types respectively, so they could very well add a 2nd Type there... although IMO it would look clunky on the card. Can you imagine a, let's say, Spellcaster/Sea Serpent/Tuner/Pendulum/Synchro monster? xD

 

IMO, still taking up less space than "this card is also treated as [insert here]-Type", which is probably an effect rather than a genuine dual type to top.

[Darj]

IMO, still taking up less space than "this card is also treated as [insert here]-Type", which is probably an effect rather than a genuine dual type to top.

 

You are right there, but I'm more concerned on if the line with the 2 Types and 3 subtypes can even fit the text box.

[Sleepy]

You are right there, but I'm more concerned on if the line with the 2 Types and 3 subtypes can even fit the text box.

 

I'm sure it can xD

We already have stuff along the lines of [beast / Flip / Tuner / Effect] and [Dragon / Xyz / Pendulum / Effect]. I've seen the game adopt different ways to make text fit into a card. Resize the letters, re-word effects to fit, or like how they did to Beatrice's card where the Xyz Materials listed don't occupy their own line but are instead separated from the effect by //

 

I can see them fitting in like 6 words in the brackets. Something like [spellcaster / Zombie / Fusion / Pendulum / Tuner / Gemini / Effect] would get iffy xD but even dual sub-types are rare out of Shaddolls, and dual advanced Summon mechanics are rare outside of Extra Deck Odd-Eyes evolutions, I doubt just saying "monsters might have a second type" will really bump things up much more unless they really wanted to see how much they can fit.

 

They could also change the layout of the card. Be it increase the box's size or get rid of it and type the data under the picture directly over the background. If they really needed to I mean.

[Darj]

I'm sure it can xD

We already have stuff along the lines of [beast / Flip / Tuner / Effect] and [Dragon / Xyz / Pendulum / Effect]. I've seen the game adopt different ways to make text fit into a card. Resize the letters, re-word effects to fit, or like how they did to Beatrice's card where the Xyz Materials listed don't occupy their own line but are instead separated from the effect by //

 

I can see them fitting in like 6 words in the brackets. Something like [spellcaster / Zombie / Fusion / Pendulum / Tuner / Gemini / Effect] would get iffy xD but even dual sub-types are rare out of Shaddolls, and dual advanced Summon mechanics are rare outside of Extra Deck Odd-Eyes evolutions, I doubt just saying "monsters might have a second type" will really bump things up much more unless they really wanted to see how much they can fit.

 

They could also change the layout of the card. Be it increase the box's size or get rid of it and type the data under the picture directly over the background. If they really needed to I mean.

 

Right. I guess using 2 lines for the brackets wouldn't hurt, but I don't really see them changing the card's layout or text size to fit them in a single one.

[Dova]

I can see them fitting in like 6 words in the brackets. Something like [spellcaster / Zombie / Fusion / Pendulum / Tuner / Gemini / Effect] would get iffy xD but even dual sub-types are rare out of Shaddolls, and dual advanced Summon mechanics are rare outside of Extra Deck Odd-Eyes evolutions, I doubt just saying "monsters might have a second type" will really bump things up much more unless they really wanted to see how much they can fit.

 

I would be all for changing the format, but I feel it might clash with older cards too much. In any case, Dual-Typing shouldn't really be a problem, as it isn't a common case, and who says YGO has too much squashed text?

[notcleverusername]

Ohey, didn't see this.

 

I've made my opinion on Cyberse-type abundantly clear. It would be less blatant if they actually re-typed previous Cyberse-ey things to BE Cyberse, if only to make it somewhat more consistent, but that's the thing--monsters that are Cyberse-ey already exist as non-Cyberse.

One can say that they're supposed to be "computers, digital and cybernetics" or "programming", but the thing is that these are literally Psychic-type and Thunder-type themes already. It's not actually a niche, it's actively been done with cards like Destructotron and Electromagnetic Virus. Even the Tron theme can be seen in Serene Psychic Witch and Silent Psychic Wizard. If you replaced the Psychic in their names with Cyberse, the redundancy becomes clearer. In Digital Bug's case, computers becomes an Insect-type theme. Especially egregious because Link Spooder exists as a Cyberse-type. Wyrms could barely be justified as people being sick of Dragons, and honestly that was already a flimsy argument, but it's not like people had so many Thunders, Psychics, and even Insects and Beasts that they could be sick of them.

 

"Future design" is, as it always has been, a fairly dumb argument and one that for Cyberse is irrelevant in the majority if not all cases. For the Cyberse that are basically Insects and Beasts, there is almost literally nothing to fear unless one is petrified of Insect Imitation and Chain Dog. For the Cyberse that are Psychics, their only truly frightening card is Limited, and the Type is still new enough for Pyros to have more members than it. Cyberse that would be Thunder probably actually have one of the best support bases, amusingly enough, but even then hardly one worth any fright (and to be honest I'd welcome a new meta-contender Thunder-type deck regardless).

Even for Machine, for the surprisingly few Cyberse that could be considered Machines--because most Cyberse take from Types that are many times smaller than Machines--interaction with existing cards is hardly worth noting, especially since the amount of actually viable Machine-type support is consistently overrated. Gear Gigant, Machine Doop, and Limiter Removal are essentially it, with Iron Call sometimes featuring. Doop is easily worked around in the same way design-wise, Limiter Removal is also consistently overrated, and Iron Call is multi-conditional fodder summon anyways. The other largest Type would probably be Dragons, which is probably the only place where any real argument for bloat can be made, but we already have a Type for avoiding Dragons!

 

And, of course, always worth remembering that rather than actually pay attention to future design, Kinamo frequently exercises the option to explicitly break Type/Attribute support and then just banlist them anyways.

 

Also, for the record, Draconnet is p obviously Wyrm--a Type that currently has 33 members.