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Winter's Ban


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#181
evilfusion

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??????????? come on people this is just silly

 

Okay, SERIOUS response now.

 

I've been vague thus far because I've been unsure whether the most recent rules update covers some of the points you've presented. I've been perplexed by the frequent mention of "fixing the system", when I could have sworn that we DID update the system.

 

It puts me in an awkward position, because you're pushing for me to comment on something that I don't actually pay any attention to.

 

...that's right. I don't actually know the contents of the rules document. I rarely encounter a situation that requires me to know that information off-hand, and I rarely handle disciplinary matters directly, and only intervene when the discretion of another mod is called into question.

 

I do look over the document when new changes are made/proposed, but I don't retain or reference its content regularly.

 

So to answer whether the situation requires a procedural change, I have to first verify whether our rules/procedures already COVER those points sufficiently. Since the points are mostly common sense, I suspect they are covered to some degree, but may need to be expanded upon, using the experience as a reference.

 

In the event that it does need further update, I have every intention of just dropping the task on Dad/Sakura/Zai/etc. I'm exceedingly hands-off when it comes to drafting proposals, public documents, or statements.

 

*shrugs* Not exactly something I was dying to admit, hence the initial "PR spokesman double talk".


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#182
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Wait are there more rules that aren't publicly known?

 

Also, I literally don't care who does it, as long as something happens.


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#183
evilfusion

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Wait are there more rules that aren't publicly known?

 

Also, I literally don't care who does it, as long as something happens.

 

Not that I know of? Unless they're part of a revamp that hasn't been finalized, type of thing.


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#184
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Then it's all good. It is all on stuff that literally wasn't part of the rules, because winter is the first time it happened.

EDIT: it very well may never happen again, but that doesn't mean the team shouldn't be prepared. No matter which side of the conflict one is on, I think most everyone can agree this could have been handled better. Of course, there are varying views on what would have been optimal, but even though there would be backlash in any course of action (including lack thereof) it is pretty clear that what ultimately happened caused a lot of unneeded chaos. The reasoning behind it is present, and understandable, but it does not make the action correct.

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#185
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I may have established this point poorly, but when I refer to many of the situations as being petty/stupid/laughable, particularly when concerning reports made against Winter, the problem there was that there WAS hostility, but individually, most cases did not warrant action. That does not make the behavior "okay", but it's not something that absolutely required intervention. I think I used the hypothetical example of someone calling another member an "idiot". That could get reported, and when looked at, usually the thought was "Well...it's rude, but it's not THAT bad".

 

 

You also seem to be one of the only ones who realized the most legitimate argument to pose to me. Not the question of "Did Winter deserve to be banned?", but rather "Did Winter deserve to be banned permanently?"

 

I will review the situation again, and update you on the decision.

to address these two before i run out the door, my views on the claims of language will likely differ from yours, and the forum in general, in this regard, what most people see as rude, i often see as par for course (this applies equally to everybody, not just winter, i deal with mostly elderly people who give no f***s, and other people who are dicks just because they can be. being sworn at on a daily basis IRL, has somewhat numbed me to internet harshness)

 

that was basically my stance from the start, i get that something was in order to be done, but a perma, was entirely too far, and i also believe that may be been the main argument of most of the people arguing his ban, though they didn't say as much.


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#186
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I have been giving this some thought and I have come to a simple conclusion on my own feelings to this.
 
My only issue at the moment is concern about the system I had in mind when I made that thread about temp bans. I want to be sure that this "sudden increase" won't be common.
I just want to know that the idea behind my thread, scaling temporary bans, isn't going to be tossed away.
 
I think one issue with how this Winter thing was handled, honestly, is...it was so sudden. This sounds silly given that one of the issues brought up was how the mod team was slow to take actions before.
What I mean is that it's a shock to the system that it went straight to permanent ban. While I do think that he didn't show enough signs of improvement to gain at least my trust that he'd improve it might have been a BIT heavy handed to go straight for the throat.
 
When I first heard about the ban I thought it was a two month one. In my opinion a lengthy ban like that would have been much better. It would have given people less reason to be paranoid and scream "Unjust" and if Winter came back and didn't improve (and didn't just devolve like he has done before. I don't want to argue this point too much but I have seen cycles of him improving and then getting worse) then he'd just be banned and that's that.
 
Basically while I get why it was chosen to be done, I will admit that I can see at least why some would feel it was too harsh.
Personally speaking so that my own thoughts aren't misconstrued. I don't think he would have improved and I think that he would have gotten a permanent ban anyway. So I am not, personally, too fussed about this. I just can see where some might be.
 
And, again, would like to be reassured that the "Scaling length of bans" thing isn't tossed out the window.

 
This probably would have gone over much better. There might still be concerns, and I do think that, after the two months would expire, Winter would come back and probably warrant a permaban anyway. I think that the "sudden increase" was more that there were some circumstances particular to Winter. As in, while some of your suggestions probably could apply in a wider sense, this was the exception. However, when the "exception" to something is the first instance where you could have tested that something, it's going to make it harder to believe that some changes could ever be implemented. So it ends up turning out that Winter doesn't look like the exception, but rather, proof that the mod team won't follow through on changes.
 
Part of it might have also been that a scaling length of bans could have been applied retroactively? Though I'm just spitballing here. Like, instead of applying a scale to Winter now, and then waiting to see how his punishments could be judged on the scale, it's more like he's already pushed the limit of that scale, so he was treated as someone would be after the scale would be implemented.
 

It's been a very clear trend and tone for the last few pages or so.  I'm just clarifying because I can see this spiraling into bigger and unnecessary problems.  Trying to get ahead of the situation, as it were.


I think the concern is more that, while some people see Winter as a special case, others don't see him as much different than other people, so if Winter got the short end of the stick, what's to stop other people from being punished the same way Winter was?


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#187
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I think the concern is more that, while some people see Winter as a special case, others don't see him as much different than other people, so if Winter got the short end of the stick, what's to stop other people from being punished the same way Winter was?

 

I've said this multiple times, but I'll say it again.  Each case is handled individually.  Case by case basis.  You're not grouped.  Everyone is subject to the same penalties, but only based on if their actions call for it.  I'm not gonna give someone two warning points for calling someone an asshole, then turn around and give someone else a temp ban for the same offense.  That doesn't make sense.


 

Don't get me fucked up.


#188
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I've said this multiple times, but I'll say it again.  Each case is handled individually.  Case by case basis.  You're not grouped.  Everyone is subject to the same penalties, but only based on if their actions call for it.  I'm not gonna give someone two warning points for calling someone an asshole, then turn around and give someone else a temp ban for the same offense.  That doesn't make sense.

I think that is clear. I don't think people are concerned about getting banned, as has been clarified repeatedly. You say everyone is subject to the same penalties, so people really just want those penalties cleared up. You can say "this is by the book" but if people can't see said book the words don't mean much.

If a critical mass of minor offenses and bad attitude warrants a ban, how is that defined? How is it measured? I'm not expecting some extensive charter, especially this soon, so you don't need to stress over that.

At this point, now that the fires have mostly been put out, the mod team just needs to be careful about generalizing the issues. Saying "people are just panicking about being banned" writes off the actual productive discussion going on now, like a straw man. I know you, so I know that is by no means your intent, but it is the effect. By acting like people are caught up in hysteria, it just slows down the progress.

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#189
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I have refrained from talking about this issue for a multitude of reasons. For one, I consider myself a friend of Winter's and I felt I'd just be accused of bias. Secondly, I don't know exactly what me speaking about this issue would solve. However, I wish to tell you guys a story.

 

Back in 2010-2012 there was this user who was slightly well known. To be fair, he was known more in infamy then the other way around. He was an insecure, cocky, a****** who always acted in an aggressive manner towards other people. He didn't do this out of malice per say, he did it because his insecurities began to cloud his judgement. He continuously believed that every single user was out to get him, and that those who said they were his friend were just lying. He would react to political debates with an incredibly forceful attitude and get really angry when his character was called into question. His infamy became so bad that he became this meme around the site as people predicted his eventual ban, or made jokes about how they wanted him banned. To many of the users on the site, he was a joke; a toxic cancer that needed to be rid of. He skirted bans through the skin of his teeth, but eventually that history of recklessness would catch up to him and he was perma-banned for posting porn.

 

However, there were things many mods didn't know.

 

For one, the users attitude wasn't helped by the fact that he was continuously berated and insulted on the site. Any topic he tended to participate in resulted in him being mocked in some way/shape/form. Another thing that many didn't know, or didn't wish to acknowledge, was that one popular user was making it his sole objective to make our protagonist as miserable as possible. He would always instigate arguments, badger the main character into corners which forced our protagonist to get defensive. This user would stalk the protagonist's status updates, continuously finding reasons to insult or mock him. Of course, this user was popular, and he got away with bloody murder as his loyal friends defended him to the death, and even helped in adding to the abuse our protagonist suffered.

 

It was ironic that he was regarded as one of the worst users this site ever had, because the same people who said that, were the ones responsible for turning our protagonist into the very villain they disliked. A sick cycle that our protagonist could never get out of.

 

That protagonist was me.

 

Does this story sound familiar? Because it should be. Winter has been fighting this exact same battle for a long time, possibly even longer than I did. When I first returned to this site, Winter wasn't really as prolific a political poster as he was now. Then I started posting controversial topics, because I saw that this site had a massive Freedom of Speech issue that needed to be addressed. Once that issue resolved I quietly faded back into lurking, but Winter believed that more could be, and should be done. That is where the two of us disagreed. I knew straight up what was happening, the Winter ban memes, the personal attacks against him, his rise in aggression in response, him being the lone wolf in debates at varying points. It was history replaying itself in some twisted carnival, he was a reminder of myself and the shite I got put through. It's why I stopped posting for a long time, because I knew how Winter's story was going to end, and I couldn't handle that knowledge.

 

The real culprit in this isn't the mods, who simply did their job to the best of their ability, nor is it entirely Winter's fault. This was the fault of users who continuously badgered Winter into corners, insulted him in status updates, and made him feel like general s*** in general.

 

Contrary to popular belief, treating a user like crap because he acts like crap isn't going to cause him to change, it's just going to turn him into the very thing these users state they hate. Because of this, every effort some of us made to help Winter was shot down. Every time we calmed him down, a user would rant off in a status update about Winter in some negative manner and the whole tower of Babel would come tumbling down. Every time we got two steps forward, some a****** user forced us to take two steps back. The sad reality is that these users, who caused similar problems to Winter, didn't get punished as much because they attacked a common enemy. They got away with bloody murder.

 

I know who each of you users are. I know what you did, and I also know that, for every time you claimed Winter was toxic, you would be toxic to him, reinforcing his behavior and making things worse for everyone else. I won't name any of you, because your time will come on this site. Now that Winter is banned, you no longer have a curtain to mask what you do from the mods, you can no longer get away with the same things you did towards Winter. Have fun, because your time on this site is limited as well.

 

That is all I have to say on this matter. I will not respond to any responses to me in this topic.


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#190
vla1ne

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I have refrained from talking about this issue for a multitude of reasons. For one, I consider myself a friend of Winter's and I felt I'd just be accused of bias. Secondly, I don't know exactly what me speaking about this issue would solve. However, I wish to tell you guys a story.

 

That is all I have to say on this matter. I will not respond to any responses to me in this topic.

i agree with much of what you said, but the last bit was somewhat unneeded, as it also provides a provocation. yeah, we can all name names, and yeah, there's more than a few axes worth grinding, but right now, it's not necessary to do so, nor would it be productive.

 

on another note, have you reviewed the situation fully yet evilfusion?


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#191
evilfusion

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on another note, have you reviewed the situation fully yet evilfusion?

 

Yes, and I've spoken with the other mods in regards to revoking the permanent status of the ban, as well as discussing how long Winter should be banned, if not permanently.

 

I must emphasize that even if Winter's behavior did not necessarily warrant a permanent ban under the new system, that it has been consistent and problematic enough, over time, to justify a period of being banned. This is to firmly pass on the message that Winter's behavior must change DRASTICALLY in the future if he is to be allowed back.

 

My current understanding is that Winter is in agreement that some time away from the site, even for a couple of months, will be in everyone's best interests. Most of the other mods remain adamant that we should still be throwing the book at him, a sentiment I don't disagree with.

 

We have concluded on having the ban expire in 180 days (6 months), 8 of which have already been served.

 

His ban will expire on October 20th.

 

Barring some sudden development, this is not likely to be amended in the near future.

 

As such, this decision is not up for debate or discussion. If you have any major, pressing concerns, you may PM me directly, but otherwise this matter is considered closed, and this thread will be locked.

 

Do not make any further threads on the subject.


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