Health Points~

[Sleepy]

Here's a concept I've been working on. A small format separated from the regular game. Partially because of the powercreep of the current game making it hard to work otherwise, and partially because what I'm gonna present here is just one of a number of changes I wanna implement.

 

Today's topic is Health Points (HP) in Yugioh Cards.

They'd work in a similar way they work in Pokemon's TCG, that is:

Cards enter the field with their own individual HP stats, which over the course of the game get damaged up until the card reaches 0 and is destroyed.

 

-For ease of keeping up with it, damage counters or dice on top of each card can be used to account for the damage each card retains. They are not officially "counters", just saying it's a way to keep up with the stats without having to resort to a dozen calculators.

-HP can be decreased via battle or effects. If a card reaches 0 HP due to battle damage, it is "destroyed by battle", and if it does due to an effect reducing it to 0 HP, then it is "destroyed by an effect".

-Flipping a card face-down does not change the amount of damage it has.

-Inflicting HP damage to a face-down card causes said card to be shown (no flipping effects happen) to check its HP.

-A concrete way to account for how much damage it has on it, is the difference between its original (printed) HP and the current (if lower) HP.

-And yes, cards can be made that boost HP past their original stats.

 

The way this works in battle is: You calculate everything else like you usually do (battle damage to a player's LP), and at the point the losing monster would be getting destroyed and prepared to go to the GY, you first calculate the HP battle damage to the monsters.

An attacking monster inflicts its full ATK to the monster's HP.

An attack target inflicts half its ATK to the monster attacking it.

A Defense Position monster that battles receives only half of the damage it would in Attack Position.

 

Some effects might do something in particular other than destroying when they deplete a card's HP (banish, bounce, set, etc.)(specified in cards' text).

 

- - - - - - - -

 

This is meant to replace straight-forward destruction and reduce the need for Special Summons. It also allows for multiple levels of removal (like Raigeki, Dark Hole, or Tribute to the Doomed), so long as the amount of HP damage they inflict to monsters is proportional with their destructive range.

 

EDIT: Changed the rule of a set standard for all face-downs, for the blue text line^

The card becomes public knowledge, which is a plus for when a card does not get to be destroyed.

 

- - - - - - - - 

 

[spoiler=Here are some IRL cards retrained/errata'd for this]

Keep in mind they are meant to showcase the mechanic, so please try to see them in a vacuum from everything else, rather than implementations to the IRL game.

I mean, this isn't exactly how I'd transform these cards, but these are here to give a more solid feel to this.

 

[spoiler=Spell/Trap Samples of Removal]

Raigeki

[Normal Spell] HP: 1500

Inflict HP damage to all monsters your opponent controls equal to this card's.

 

Dark Hole

[Normal Spell] HP: 2000

Inflict HP damage to all monsters on the field equal to this card's.

 

Lightning Vortex

[Normal Spell] HP: 2500

Discard 1 card; Inflict HP damage to all face-up monsters your opponent controls equal to this card's.

 

Tribute to the Doomed

[Normal Spell] HP: 5000

Discard 1 card to target 1 monster on the field; inflict HP damage to it equal to this card's.

 

Heavy Storm

[Normal Spell] HP: 1400

Inflict HP damage to all Spell/Trap Cards on the field equal to this card's.

 

Giant Trunade

[Normal Spell] HP: 1200

Inflict HP damage to all Spell/Trap Cards on the field equal to this card's. If a card's HP becomes 0 this way, return it to the hand.

 

Mystical Space Typhoon

[Quick-Play Spell] HP: 2100

Target 1 Spell/Trap Card on the field; Inflict HP damage to it equal to this card's.

 

Dust Tornado

[Normal Trap] HP: 2500

Target 1 Spell/Trap Card your opponent controls; Inflict HP damage to it equal to this card's, then you can set 1 Spell/Trap Card from your hand.

 

De-Spell

[Normal Spell] HP: 4500

Target 1 Spell/Trap Card on the field; reveal it (if face-down), and if it is a Spell Card, inflict HP damage to it equal to this card's.

 

 

[spoiler=MoreBackrow]

Monster Reborn

[Normal Spell] HP: 500

Target 1 monster from any GY; Special Summon it, and if you do, it's original HP becomes this card's.

 

Pot of Greed

[Normal Spell] HP: 100

Distribute multiples of 100 HP damage among cards you control (max. 2000). Then, if there is 4000 or more total HP damage on your side of the field, draw 2 cards. You cannot activate face-down Spell/Trap Cards that took damage this way for the rest of the turn.

 

Swords of Revealing Light

[Normal Spell] HP: 3600

After this card's activation, it remains on the field. Each of your opponent's End Phases, this card loses 1200 HP. When this card is activated: Flip all face-down monsters your opponent controls face-up (if any). While this card is face-up on the field, your opponent cannot declare an attack.

 

Change of heart

[Normal Spell] HP: 700

Target 1 monster your opponent controls; If its HP is between 2000 and 3000, switch control of it until the End Phase.

 

 

[spoiler=Monsters]

Blue-Eyes White Dragon

LIGHT Level 8 [Dragon/Normal] 3000/2500 HP: 4500

 

Summoned Skull

DARK Level 6 [Fiend/Normal] 2500/1200 HP: 3500

 

Cyber Dragon

LIGHT Level 5 [Machine/Effect] 2100/1600 HP: 2600

If you control no monsters, you can Special Summon this card (from your hand), but it loses 800 HP.

 

Des Koala

DARK Level 3 [beast/Flip/Effect] 1100/1800 HP: 1900

FLIP: Inflict 400 damage to your opponent's LP for each card in their hand, and if you do, this card gains that much HP.

 

D.D. Crazy Beast
EARTH Level 3 [beast/Effect] 1400/1400 HP: 2200

After damage calculation, if a monster that battles with this card has 1400 or less HP: Inflict 1400 HP damage to it. If a monster's HP becomes 0 by this card's battle or effect, it is banished.

 

 

 

 

 

^Actually realistically speaking, D.D. Crazy Beast would work the same way it does IRL (if it depletes the other monster's HP, it'd be "destroyed by battle" officially, and so it'd be able to banish it that way), but I mean.... It's one of my favorite cards so a little improvement for it in these samples *cough*

I do apologize for how convoluted Pot of Greed's sample is here. None are set in stone and all these were more or less improvised samples ^^"

[Darj]

I like the concept, even if it's a bit rough at the moment and you are not addressing the entire overhaul that removal effects would needs since, If I got it right, they all would inflict specific values of damage to the monster's HP instead.

 

My first concern is the whole "Set monsters have a fixed HP instead". What if the monster has less HP than the base value (2000 in your example)? Would it technically "recover" HP back to 2000? Regardless, Set/face-down monsters having a separate/standard HP is messy for me. I would prefer if their original HPs applied, and if the opponent attempted to remove them by effect, it would have to take the chances at the effect being strong enough to remove the monster, but if it isn't, then it would be neat if the monster was flipped face-up instead, revealing its true HP and taking damage accordingly. I believe this would greatly benefit Flips, which otherwise would be removed without a chance of using their Flip effects.

 

Also it is unclear to me: this only applies to Monster Cards, right? Or Spell/Traps would also have HP values which means that Spell/Trap removal would also need their HP damaging values?

[Sleepy]

I like the concept, even if it's a bit rough at the moment and you are not addressing the entire overhaul that removal effects would needs since, If I got it right, they all would inflict specific values of damage to the monster's HP instead.

 

My first concern is the whole "Set monsters have a fixed HP instead". What if the monster has less HP than the base value (2000 in your example)? Would it technically "recover" HP back to 2000? Regardless, Set/face-down monsters having a separate/standard HP is messy for me. I would prefer if their original HPs applied, and if the opponent attempted to remove them by effect, it would have to take the chances at the effect being strong enough to remove the monster, but if it isn't, then it would be neat if the monster was flipped face-up instead, revealing its true HP and taking damage accordingly. I believe this would greatly benefit Flips, which otherwise would be removed without a chance of using their Flip effects.

 

Also it is unclear to me: this only applies to Monster Cards, right? Or Spell/Traps would also have HP values which means that Spell/Trap removal would also need their HP damaging values?

 

 

Not sure about "overhaul" because I stated this is gonna be its own thing starting a card pool from scratch. Not a system intending to apply in specific and arbitrary ways to each specific card that already exists. It could re-train cards into working with this system for research purposes, but that'd be just enough to help a standard and feel of it get fixed to help design appropriately for this.

 

I'd love to find a way to give face-downs custom HP, but then you'd be giving away what the face-down card is, and your face-downs aren't always gonna be face-ups flipped down. 

If a monster with, say, 1200 HP (printed) and no damage on it would receive 1300 HP damage (for the sake of an example), and you flipped it face-down, it'd turn into the standard 2000 and take those 1300 damage, staying at 700 left so long as it is face-down. The moment it gets flipped back up it dies, because it is carrying 1300 damage regardless. The damage it retains is the difference between original (face-up printed or face-down standard) and current (if lower) HP. You count how much that is before flipping it up/down, then once the flipping occurs you transfer that amount to the new quantity.

 

It currently sounds a little bit convoluted, I know, but I'm working on wording it in a more simple manner. Or if I get a suggestion that feels better than this procedure, that also could work.

 

HP would be held by all kinds of cards, but I am currently unsure on why normal/quick play/ritual S/T would even want HP. 

I thought about having it so that if damaged up to 0, it'd be an inherent effect negation of that normal/quick play/ritual S/T, but I'm not really sold on that idea at the moment.

[Darj]

Not sure about "overhaul" because I stated this is gonna be its own thing starting a card pool from scratch. Not a system intending to apply in specific and arbitrary ways to each specific card that already exists. It could re-train cards into working with this system for research purposes, but that'd be just enough to help a standard and feel of it get fixed to help design appropriately for this.

 

I'd love to find a way to give face-downs custom HP, but then you'd be giving away what the face-down card is, and your face-downs aren't always gonna be face-ups flipped down. 

If a monster with, say, 1200 HP (printed) and no damage on it would receive 1300 HP damage (for the sake of an example), and you flipped it face-down, it'd turn into the standard 2000 and take those 1300 damage, staying at 700 left so long as it is face-down. The moment it gets flipped back up it dies, because it is carrying 1300 damage regardless. The damage it retains is the difference between original (face-up printed or face-down standard) and current (if lower) HP. You count how much that is before flipping it up/down, then once the flipping occurs you transfer that amount to the new quantity.

 

It currently sounds a little bit convoluted, I know, but I'm working on wording it in a more simple manner. Or if I get a suggestion that feels better than this procedure, that also could work.

 

HP would be held by all kinds of cards, but I am currently unsure on why normal/quick play/ritual S/T would even want HP. 

I thought about having it so that if damaged up to 0, it'd be an inherent effect negation of that normal/quick play/ritual S/T, but I'm not really sold on that idea at the moment.

 

Yeah, that's why I say that giving face-down monsters a different, separate HP is messy/convoluted. But if it flipped the monster upon receiving "effect damage" and revealing its actual HP, then it would be a much welcomed boon for Flip monsters.

 

As for HP for Spell/Traps, while it should be clear how Continuous-like Spell/Traps benefit from it, it could also help the "volatile" Spell/Traps when you Set them and the opponent attempts to remove them: if the damage is not enough, then you could make them "survive" and Set them again, but taking note of their remaining HP. That may be a bit complicated, but it would add a layer of gameplay there, since, for example, you could make some sort of Heavy Storm-lite that destroys all Spell/Traps for little damage, and would function more as a tool for "scouting" backrow.

[Sleepy]

Yeah, that's why I say that giving face-down monsters a different, separate HP is messy/convoluted. But if it flipped the monster upon receiving "effect damage" and revealing its actual HP, then it would be a much welcomed boon for Flip monsters.

 

As for HP for Spell/Traps, while it should be clear how Continuous-like Spell/Traps benefit from it, it could also help the "volatile" Spell/Traps when you Set them and the opponent attempts to remove them: if the damage is not enough, then you could make them "survive" and Set them again, but taking note of their remaining HP. That may be a bit complicated, but it would add a layer of gameplay there, since, for example, you could make some sort of Heavy Storm-lite that destroys all Spell/Traps for little damage, and would function more as a tool for "scouting" backrow.

 

Yes that is a good idea for backrow, but I'm unsure because I'd have to remain consistent with the rules I end up setting up, which means monsters would also need to be affected this way. Every time something lowkey "destroys" it'd be looking at cards, and since that would be the main form of removal to go by, it'd mean you can always have a way of seeing what's up. That removes a layer of mindgames I don't really think I want removed from the environment.

 

The concept has potential but, yeah.

[Darj]

Yes that is a good idea for backrow, but I'm unsure because I'd have to remain consistent with the rules I end up setting up, which means monsters would also need to be affected this way. Every time something lowkey "destroys" it'd be looking at cards, and since that would be the main form of removal to go by, it'd mean you can always have a way of seeing what's up. That removes a layer of mindgames I don't really think I want removed from the environment.

 

The concept has potential but, yeah.

 

Well, think about this: that Spell/Trap removal effect normally would get rid of the card, but now if it's not strong enough, the card survives, but you still get to see what it is and thus gain some intel. Isn't that a different kind of mindgame? I mean, you now know hat card is, but you still have to play around, plus you already spend whatever resources cost you to use the Spell/Trap removal effect. If you want to get rid of the card for sure, you would have to resort to stronger Spell/Trap removal effects. This could also make cards like, let's say, MST relevant again.

 

As for the ruling differences on Set monsters and Spell/Traps, IMO it wouldn't be difficult to understand, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[Sleepy]

Well, think about this: that Spell/Trap removal effect normally would get rid of the card, but now if it's not strong enough, the card survives, but you still get to see what it is and thus gain some intel. Isn't that a different kind of mindgame? I mean, you now know hat card is, but you still have to play around, plus you already spend whatever resources cost you to use the Spell/Trap removal effect. If you want to get rid of the card for sure, you would have to resort to stronger Spell/Trap removal effects. This could also make cards like, let's say, MST relevant again.

 

As for the ruling differences on Set monsters and Spell/Traps, IMO it wouldn't be difficult to understand, so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

So what you are saying is that it'd be better to keep the 2k face-down standard for monsters, but use the printed HP for face-down S/T?

I will try the idea. I kind of thought you'd be advocating for the full abolition of the 2k face-down standard, and that the "check the card's HP via revealing it" be implemented across the map.

[Darj]

So what you are saying is that it'd be better to keep the 2k face-down standard for monsters, but use the printed HP for face-down S/T?

I will try the idea. I kind of thought you'd be advocating for the full abolition of the 2k face-down standard, and that the "check the card's HP via revealing it" be implemented across the map.

 

Uh, yes, I do advocate for removing the standard HP for all Set cards (in our examples 2k) and implement the "check the card' HP via revealing it". I guess I misunderstood you: I thought you didn't like that monsters and Spell/Traps behaved in different ways when revealed, in the sense that monsters will remain face-up and trigger any effects, while "volatile" Spell/Traps would go back to being Set and... I guess Continuous-like Spell/Traps could be flipped as well, and maybe forced to be activated, Bait Doll style, if they survive the damage.

[Sleepy]

Uh, yes, I do advocate for removing the standard HP for all Set cards (in our examples 2k) and implement the "check the card' HP via revealing it". I guess I misunderstood you: I thought you didn't like that monsters and Spell/Traps behaved in different ways when revealed, in the sense that monsters will remain face-up and trigger any effects, while "volatile" Spell/Traps would go back to being Set and... I guess Continuous-like Spell/Traps could be flipped as well, and maybe forced to be activated, Bait Doll style, if they survive the damage.

 

I don't think that's how monsters would behave. You can check face-down monsters with Crush Card without having Flips go off. You are not "flipping" them, you are just showing them, that's what I thought you meant.

[Sleepy]

EDIT:
Modified the OP. It no longer has the 2k standard, and instead it uses the mechanic of revealing the damaged cards. I'll get around to test it IRL with proxies and see how it turns out though xP

 

Also, I added sample retrain cards just for the sake of giving an idea of stuff that can be made with them.

Literally just samples for educational purposes. I don't really intend for those to be in my final project xD

 

So far posting the concept has proven to be pretty helpful.

[Darj]

I don't think that's how monsters would behave. You can check face-down monsters with Crush Card without having Flips go off. You are not "flipping" them, you are just showing them, that's what I thought you meant.

 

Sure, just "checking" them works, but why you don't like the idea of actually flipping them face-up? Flips need a boost, IMO.

[Sleepy]

Sure, just "checking" them works, but why you don't like the idea of actually flipping them face-up? Flips need a boost, IMO.

 

I don't think Flips inherently lack a boost as a mechanic, it is just that IRL current Yugioh has a ton of obsolete stuff, including most Trap Cards that ever existed... but the pool isn't really gonna be the same.

[Horu]

Another issue is that a lot of flip effect monsters need to be destroyed for their effects to trigger. So you would technically have to give those monsters a relatively low HP so they can still pop off without a hitch.

[Sleepy]

Another issue is that a lot of flip effect monsters need to be destroyed for their effects to trigger. So you would technically have to give those monsters a relatively low HP so they can still pop off without a hitch.

 

Most Flip Effect monsters only require to be flipped face-up. So I don't really see the issue. 

It is such a minority IRL that I can only recall off the top of my head Punny Penguin as a Flip that wants to die, and on the other side, only Brain Jacker and Jiren Bakudan as Flips that wanna survive.

 

Even so, if there were more of either kind, it wouldn't necessarily mean you HAD to give them low/high (respectively) HP to easily fulfill their effects.

On the contrary, you could make high HP Flips that want to die, to balance out a stronger effect they wouldn't be able to have IRL.

 

You see, the idea is not to give cards the necessary HP to run the same way they already do without the HP idea, otherwise I'd just be adding an ignorable stat that makes no difference.

[Horu]

Most Flip Effect monsters only require to be flipped face-up. So I don't really see the issue.

It is such a minority IRL that I can only recall off the top of my head Punny Penguin as a Flip that wants to die, and on the other side, only Brain Jacker and Jiren Bakudan as Flips that wanna survive.

 

Even so, if there were more of either kind, it wouldn't necessarily mean you HAD to give them low/high (respectively) HP to easily fulfill their effects.

On the contrary, you could make high HP Flips that want to die, to balance out a stronger effect they wouldn't be able to have IRL.

 

You see, the idea is not to give cards the necessary HP to run the same way they already do without the HP idea, otherwise I'd just be adding an ignorable stat that makes no difference.

That's a fair point. But let's assume a Yugi vs Kaiba scenario here. Both have Dark Magician and Blue-Eyes out on the field respectively. No matter how you deal damage, either ATK vs ATK equals damage or ATK vs DEF equals damage, Dark Magician would like lose 500-900 HP every battle.

[Sleepy]

That's a fair point. But let's assume a Yugi vs Kaiba scenario here. Both have Dark Magician and Blue-Eyes out on the field respectively. No matter how you deal damage, either ATK vs ATK equals damage or ATK vs DEF equals damage, Dark Magician would like lose 500-900 HP every battle.

 

Hmm let's see. At the first post of the thread, I have a Blue-Eyes with 4500 HP. Since they are both double-Tribute Normal Monsters, I'm more or less intending for those to be up to 1500 HP higher than their ATK/DEF (whichever is higher) on average. With that formula, Dark Magician would have 4000 HP.

Now that we have both HP values, this is how a battle would unfold between those two monsters.

 

If Blue-Eyes (4500 HP) attacks Dark Magician (4000 HP):

Blue-Eyes inflicts 3000 HP damage to Dark Magician, and Dark Magician would inflict 1250 HP damage to Blue-Eyes in turn.

Attacker inflicts full damage, attacked monster inflicts half damage (to HP).

After that battle Blue-Eyes would have 3250 HP, and Dark Magician would have 1000 HP left.

 

If Dark Magician (4000 HP) attacks Blue-Eyes (4500 HP):

Dark Magician is inflicting its full 2500 ATK as HP damage, but Blue-Eyes being on the receiving end, can only inflict 1500 HP damage.

Dark Magician would have 2500 HP left, and Blue-Eyes would have 2000 HP left.

 

In both scenarios Blue-Eyes does get weakened, but it still constantly has the upper-hand. In both cases, the second time they get to battle will result in Dark Magician being destroyed and Blue-Eyes surviving.

 

The incentive is that you can take down big monsters eventually, because having won the battle doesn't mean the victory comes without a scratch.

Not to mention battle damage to the losing player's LP is still being taken every time, so even if Blue-Eyes ends up getting destroyed, it would have probably been worth the damage xP

 

[Horu]

But what I'm getting at is this:

Blue-Eyes White Dragon 4500/3000/2500

Dark Magician 4000/2500/2100

 

I would assume that since Dark Magician would be the defending monster, though his defense isn't quite strong enough to keep him from receiving damage, he would lose 900 HP, but maybe he could be on the field long enough for you get lucky enough to pull something like Mage Power or Axe of Despair?

[Sleepy]

But what I'm getting at is this:

Blue-Eyes White Dragon 4500/3000/2500

Dark Magician 4000/2500/2100

 

I would assume that since Dark Magician would be the defending monster, though his defense isn't quite strong enough to keep him from receiving damage, he would lose 900 HP, but maybe he could be on the field long enough for you get lucky enough to pull something like Mage Power or Axe of Despair?

 

The DEF points are for protecting your Life Points. They don't really help substract damage to the HP.

 

Being in Defense Position though means the monster takes halved damage to their HP, so Dark Magician would take 1500 only.

As he takes this damage from Blue-Eyes, he is still battling and still being attacked so he gets to still inflict 1250 damage to the Blue-Eyes's HP.

 

Yes, getting Dark Magician destroyed by battle with Blue Eyes will pretty much always take a couple turns, so you have more time to draw into something like Axe of Despair or Mage Power. If you get your Dark Magician's ATK to become 4500 or more, you can destroy the Blue-Eyes in a single attack.

 

Even if Dark Magician is damaged regardless, your opponent trying to destroy it by taking the rest of Dark Magician's HP with smaller monsters, that will inflict a lot of Life Points damage to the player trying to do that, and if they don't succeed, no matter how damaged Dark Magician is, you can fuse it to make Dark Paladin, and Dark Paladin won't have any damage (at least by the way the rules are at the moment hehe)