Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Recently I've had an issue in the VRAINS thread where people have just been casually encouraging people to go watch the new Dailymotion. Seeing Sakura, one of our own super mods, casually recommending people to go to view pirating sources is... disheartening. Yin and I both created rules years ago for a variety of reasons, such as reducing duplicate threads, flooding, piracy, etc. Sakura said that the rules are "antiquated", so here's a list of the current rulebook. 1. There are several "official" threads. (I will allow for these to be necrobumped as long at it doesn't reach 6months+)• Bleach• Naruto• Pokemon Black and White• Pokemon X and Y• Favorite Anime Character• Yu-Gi-Oh! Zexal Japanese / DubIf you wish to discuss anything related to any of the above anime, please post in the appropriate topic. If an official topic does not catch your attention at first glance, use Ctrl+F to search. Otherwise, you may create a topic. If you create a topic which can be discussed in one of the officials, it WILL be locked.2. All topics requesting animes you want to watch. MUST contain a list of watched animes to assist with members helping deciding what animes to suggest. Topics that fail to comply created after 3/10 will be locked.3. NO best duelists or vs. topics these topics belong in Polls.4. Do not link to unofficial sites for anime. Manga is possible, primarily because it may not be as easy for those to afford it, but websites such as Funimation, Crunchyroll, and even Hulu are legal sources for anime. While certain shows may not be licensed, please check if they are before linking to places such as GoGoAnime or KissAnime.The most notable aspect, to me, is that while "Anime & Manga" was changed to "Animation & Graphic Novels" to account for western animation, and comics like DC and Marvel, I neglected to revise the rules to account for the change. As such, the purpose of this thread is twofold: To update the rules for what used to be Anime & Manga, as well as have rules specifically for Animation & Graphic Novels. Obviously some of the changes could be like "We're talking about Sun & Moon and VRAINS, not Black & White, X & Y, and ZEXAL." More than just changing the focus to which shows are current, I'm hoping there could be some more solid rules in place, because the current rulebook looks more like stream of consciousness rather than a more solid set of rules that could hold up for years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Flyer - Sakura Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just for the record, Roxas, I said NOT to post links to sites (and yes, I did see the report pertaining to Zazu linking as such and addressing). You can just say that the subs and stuff are up, but not actually link to the sites in question. As of recently, only Zazu has explicitly done so. I do not endorse promoting piracy. However, IF we get a new mod to succeed Smear and such in the area, the policy may be changed under their rule; it is not a definite "yes, it will be modified". But otherwise, the rules do need updates since it's been a while. ====At the minimum, the no linking rule will be retained, and probably to keep major discussion topics for franchises in their threads. Major ones right now are VRAINS and Sun & Moon; if any of the other series get popular here to warrant their own thread, discussion can shift to those. Matter has been brought up in the mod area, so we can at least look at what to fix for the area. Ultimately though, it should be a stickied thread because some users have noted that they don't see the rules as an announcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 From the VRAINS thread: This should've been saved for the other topic, Roxas, instead of using this thread. I don't encourage people to hotlink or find other places, nor have any plans on modifying the rule at all. That remark was addressing everyone who comes in here as a whole, not to chew out particular members, including the one that sparked this discussion. If you want to continue the discussion, please use that topic. This thread hadn't existed at the time of my post. I started this thread as an extension of this post, so I was responding to what I felt was most relevant to that thread, and decided to extend the issue in a more general sense with this thread. Just for the record, Roxas, I said NOT to post links to sites (and yes, I did see the report pertaining to Zazu linking as such and addressing). You can just say that the subs and stuff are up, but not actually link to the sites in question. As of recently, only Zazu has explicitly done so. I do not endorse promoting piracy. However, IF we get a new mod to succeed Smear and such in the area, the policy may be changed under their rule; it is not a definite "yes, it will be modified". But otherwise, the rules do need updates since it's been a while. ====At the minimum, the no linking rule will be retained, and probably to keep major discussion topics for franchises in their threads. Major ones right now are VRAINS and Sun & Moon; if any of the other series get popular here to warrant their own thread, discussion can shift to those. Matter has been brought up in the mod area, so we can at least look at what to fix for the area. Ultimately though, it should be a stickied thread because some users have noted that they don't see the rules as an announcement. Telling people to go to Dailymotion is still promoting piracy. While you're against linking to sites, it still seems rather suspect to inform people what's available on Dailymotion. I'm glad that the no linking rule would be retained, and that this has been brought up in the mod area. A stickied thread would be better, as it was difficult for me to find the Anime Rules announcement again. A thread would also be good for discussion, so if new rules are indeed established, people could discuss them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 While the Animation & Graphic Novels rules only specify linking to illegal sites, the rules for the entire forum are broader. Rule 5 in the YCM rulebook states that it is against the forum rules to post information regarding illegal content, and includes streaming sites as an example. While a cursory search shows that you (Sakura) haven't posted links to illegal streaming sites since 2014, you have given information on them multiple times. Giving the name of a website and saying what is available on it accomplishes the exact same thing as linking to it, and the forum rulebook (that you posted) clarifies it as against the rules. I thought I remembered you linking illegal sites more recently, but if you ever did it was edited out, so there isn't much to accuse you of there, at least as far as I could find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 While the Animation & Graphic Novels rules only specify linking to illegal sites, the rules for the entire forum are broader. Rule 5 in the YCM rulebook states that it is against the forum rules to post information regarding illegal content, and includes streaming sites as an example. While a cursory search shows that you (Sakura) haven't posted links to illegal streaming sites since 2014, you have given information on them multiple times. Giving the name of a website and saying what is available on it accomplishes the exact same thing as linking to it, and the forum rulebook (that you posted) clarifies it as against the rules. I thought I remembered you linking illegal sites more recently, but if you ever did it was edited out, so there isn't much to accuse you of there, at least as far as I could find. This is a good point. There's an overlap between the section-specific rules, and the forum's rules, so Sakura's claim of not promoting piracy is rather dubious, when he has done exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Max Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Dailymotion has piracy? I thought that it was deleted as quick as uploads on Youtube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Dailymotion has piracy? I thought that it was deleted as quick as uploads on Youtube. I can't speak to how quickly they're deleted, but Sakura informs people that videos are available on that site, and when an episode is not yet uploaded to Crunchyroll, Sakura will watch the episode on Dailymotion, and then post in the VRAINS thread that he has done so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Why does it matter, taking legal action against YCM for linking to DM or even other sites would be practically impossible Welcome to the beauty that is capitalism Roxas, when your good's prices are of poor quality, or above a consumer's reservation price, they tend to go elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Max Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I can't speak to how quickly they're deleted, but Sakura informs people that videos are available on that site, and when an episode is not yet uploaded to Crunchyroll, Sakura will watch the episode on Dailymotion, and then post in the VRAINS thread that he has done so.Hmmmmm. It's fine to say that you have seen the subbed episode but mentioning where is a bit shady tbf. I could have sworn that people were posting links to the Subs and Raw back in the Arc-V days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Hmmmmm. It's fine to say that you have seen the subbed episode but mentioning where is a bit shady tbf. I could have sworn that people were posting links to the Subs and Raw back in the Arc-V days.I can't speak to that being done in the Arc-V days, but at the very least, these rules were implemented during Zexal. At least on factor for the decision was a variety of illegal links being posted for Sailor Moon Crystal, despite continuous warnings not to do so. The issue is that we have a mod violating rules that are more than just specific to that particular section, and apply to the rest of the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I dont think that we should ban endorsement of piracy. There are certain things that are too old or obscure to be on any legal sites and its not just anime thats like that there are other cartoons that would be too much of a pain to find elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Easy fix seems to just gut the linking rule so that Sakura is not in violation of anything People need to stop trying to make life harder than it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I dont think that we should ban endorsement of piracy. There are certain things that are too old or obscure to be on any legal sites and its not just anime thats like that there are other cartoons that would be too much of a pain to find elsewhere.I don't disagree with you on a personal level, but the issue with this, just as with a mod (can't remember which) telling people "if you are under 13, just lie about it" is the risk of legal repercussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Easy fix seems to just gut the linking rule so that Sakura is not in violation of anything People need to stop trying to make life harder than it is Gutting a rule so Sakura wouldn't be violating anything is suggesting that the problem is with the rule, rather than with Sakura for violating the rule. I'd rather the rules not be revised so they could be more convenient for Sakura. It's not "making life harder" to encourage people towards better options of streaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I don't disagree with you on a personal level, but the issue with this, just as with a mod (can't remember which) telling people "if you are under 13, just lie about it" is the risk of legal repercussion.There are ways to avoid this If you knowingly link directly to, but do not host, infringing materials, then you might be liable for "contributory copyright infringement." This occurs when you "intentionally induc[e] or encourag[e] direct infringement" of a copyrighted work. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios, Inc. v. Grokster, Ltd, 545 U.S. 913, (2005) is sort of the prevailing law on this. A jury decides what "knowing" means, so do not be too glib with that restriction. A couple steps you can take to err on the safe side: not EMBEDDING (or inlining) videos that are obviously infringing, removing videos in response to DMCA takedown requests, and not compiling a carefully tailored list of links to incidences of direct, obvious infringement. What Sakura did won't get us in legal trouble at all, embedding it might, but unlikely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I don't disagree with you on a personal level, but the issue with this, just as with a mod (can't remember which) telling people "if you are under 13, just lie about it" is the risk of legal repercussion.If an animation is too old and obscure then its highly unlikely for any legal repercussions to happen. The scenario of under 13 years getting legal repercussion isnt the most likely thing but is much more likely than getting repercussions from telling someone that Tamala 2010 is up on KissAni. Copyright holders might be abusive but things that obviously dont have any major company backing them up due to age and obscurity is not a big problem for most, in fact its more reasonable to say that they would rather go against the site that has the illegal upload rather than the site that mentioned its there. As opposed to us letting kids under 13 join which would be directly on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 If an animation is too old and obscure then its highly unlikely for any legal repercussions to happen. The scenario of under 13 years getting legal repercussion isnt the most likely thing but is much more likely than getting repercussions from telling someone that Tamala 2010 is up on KissAni. Copyright holders might be abusive but things that obviously dont have any major company backing them up due to age and obscurity is not a big problem for most, in fact its more reasonable to say that they would rather go against the site that has the illegal upload rather than the site that mentioned its there. As opposed to us letting kids under 13 join which would be directly on us. I get what you're saying, so I would like to suggest this be the exception rather than the rule. I'm still wary about the linking on principle, but in the case of shows that are so old that there is simply no other recourse, that may be understandable. But that doesn't mean "If a show is absolutely unavailable in any legal form, it's okay to link to certain sites." There's a middle ground here that I do want to offer that could satisfy what you're saying, but I'm not quite sure what I'd be comfortable with in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 A great way to kill the section's activity is to force people to dump cash into watching things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 If an animation is too old and obscure then its highly unlikely for any legal repercussions to happen. The scenario of under 13 years getting legal repercussion isnt the most likely thing but is much more likely than getting repercussions from telling someone that Tamala 2010 is up on KissAni. Copyright holders might be abusive but things that obviously dont have any major company backing them up due to age and obscurity is not a big problem for most, in fact its more reasonable to say that they would rather go against the site that has the illegal upload rather than the site that mentioned its there. As opposed to us letting kids under 13 join which would be directly on us.See, this isn't really even about old anime that can't be otherwise accessed. This is regarding ongoing shows, that in many cases are also available on free, legal sites such as Crunchyroll, albeit after a small delay. It isn't for the staff of this site to determine how or where you choose to watch media, but encouraging members to use illegal sources, especially when legal options exist, is just poor form, especially when coming from a staff member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susie Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I get what you're saying, so I would like to suggest this be the exception rather than the rule. I'm still wary about the linking on principle, but in the case of shows that are so old that there is simply no other recourse, that may be understandable. But that doesn't mean "If a show is absolutely unavailable in any legal form, it's okay to link to certain sites." There's a middle ground here that I do want to offer that could satisfy what you're saying, but I'm not quite sure what I'd be comfortable with in that situation.I do agree with not linking to illegal sites just for the sake that those sites have illegal uploads that can easily be found through legal measures that you can access with barely any clicks at all not because we would get into any legal trouble for it because we wont. Mentioning where to watch them is a fair middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I do agree with not linking to illegal sites just for the sake that those sites have illegal uploads that can easily be found through legal measures that you can access with barely any clicks at all not because we would get into any legal trouble for it because we wont. Mentioning where to watch them is a fair middle ground. Mentioning where to watch them is my issue. I realize this may come across as moving the goalposts, so let me get this out of way: Me: "You can't link to these sites."Sakura: "Okay, I'll just mention going to Dailymotion."Me: "Oh, never mind, you can't do that either." I want this to be a update of the current rules to be more strict. Frankly, some of the hostility towards Crunchyroll is rather too immature for me to consider it a fair grievance. For a current staff member for disregard the rules is a problem, so I think there are two issues here: Updating the rules, and discussing Sakura's handling of the situation. This thread is for the former, while I'll be posting in the Complaints thread for the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Crunchy either has retarded levels of commercial, doesn't load properly, or costs money why do you care so much roxas, I showed you a court case where the person in sakura's position was vindicated, so it's clearly not legal If it bothers you that sakura is breaking some arcane and archaic rule, (1) get over it (2) scrap the rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Max Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I would watch Crunchyroll legit on my Xbox One if it didn't keep looping ads during a episode. I really should get a subscription lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Roxas Posted January 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Crunchy either has retarded levels of commercial, doesn't load properly, or costs money why do you care so much roxas, I showed you a court case where the person in sakura's position was vindicated, so it's clearly not legal If it bothers you that sakura is breaking some arcane and archaic rule, (1) get over it (2) scrap the rule Winter, you're really not helping. I am neither going to "get over it" or scrap the rule. If you're going to resort to petty insults, I'm not sure what to tell you. I would watch Crunchyroll legit on my Xbox One if it didn't keep looping ads during a episode. I really should get a subscription lol. I'm usually far enough behind on shows that I don't need a subscription, though I'd like to get one once I see myself watching anime regularly enough as it airs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Winter, you're really not helping. I am neither going to "get over it" or scrap the rule. If you're going to resort to petty insults, I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm usually far enough behind on shows that I don't need a subscription, though I'd like to get one once I see myself watching anime regularly enough as it airs.Sure, so give me good reasons why you care so much. I've already shown that a legal route isn't anything we have to fear. Telling you to get over it isn't an insult, "Roxas stop shilling for crunchyroll" would be, and I didn't say that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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