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[Discussion] Debates v.s. Discussion


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#1
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Sunshine Jesse, on 31 Jan 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:
On an unrelated note, I don't like how this thread was moved into debates. Like I know it turned into a debate, but it didn't start as one and it's starting to seem like almost every thread in general/misc that spawns a substantive discussion is being moved here.
 
I don't think there's anything super wrong with that per se but I'd much prefer it if Debates was reserved for targeted debate on a subject that's evident from the first post. It really gives off the impression that meaningful discussion doesn't belong anywhere else.
 

 

My decision making is admittedly rash.  Typically, when I see a topic blow up in responses (especially in relation to more heated topics ranging from general politics to religion, immigration, war, etc.) I instinctively move it to Debates.  Why?  Hard to explain.  I think it may be because I see an objective point of view that will raise bias and I think it's better to get ahead of it than to let it swell up and explode into a war.

 

However, that's both foolish and misleading.  I can neither guarantee that the topic will continue to grow nor can I be assured that whatever biases may appear will result in great conflict.

 

So, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to best proceed with topics in both General and Debates when it comes to moving those topics between the two.  How would you like me to proceed in the future?


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#2
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I get Jesse's pt, but I'm sure we all remember what 2016 was like (in no small part due to me). Preventing a forum wide aggression seems like it'd be worth it. 

 

I don't actually see what's so bad about the shooting topic though (granted Ive been tuned out of it)


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#3
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Well, realistically moving it shouldn't effect activity because it still exists and most of the people posting would continue to do so even in a different section.

 

Honestly one thing is the question of if Debates is to be "debates" or "controversial topics" too.


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#4
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I get Jesse's pt, but I'm sure we all remember what 2016 was like (in no small part due to me). Preventing a forum wide aggression seems like it'd be worth it. 

 

I don't actually see what's so bad about the shooting topic though (granted Ive been tuned out of it)

 

To address it, it felt like to me the topic was deviating from the shooting to the morals behind bullying.  That was why I moved it.  If anyone can convince me to move it back to General, I'm happy to listen.


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#5
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To address it, it felt like to me the topic was deviating from the shooting to the morals behind bullying.  That was why I moved it.  If anyone can convince me to move it back to General, I'm happy to listen.

Maybe I misunderstand, but I thought moving things to debates was due to heated arguments not tangents


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#6
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Maybe I misunderstand, but I thought moving things to debates was due to heated arguments not tangents

 

Well, think about it.  Moral objectivity is what YCM gets into heated arguments about all the time lol.  Again, I was trying to get ahead of it.


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#7
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I don't really see why threads aren't allowed to explode into a shitstorm in General. That's usually when the most interesting conversations happen, so seeing everything that gets a decent amount of posts in a small period of time moved to debates is kinda disheartening. At least, I lose all interest to post in it.

 

forgot a word there


Edited by Mitch-Arei-Gensou-Engi-tan, 31 January 2018 - 11:07 PM.

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#8
Sunshine Jesse

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I think Debates should be reserved for threads that have a need for moderated, focused discussion.

 

Certain discussions can get pretty heated but there's no need for said direction unless there's a particularly high potential for it going off track. I'm not going to call Polaris a cockmongling thundercunt because he ascribes more agency to someone who shoots up a school than I do. But I'm a bit more likely to do that on the subject of Net Neutrality, and I was a hell of a lot more likely do that to Winter during the 2016 election (I think I actually did). The latter took me to very bad places and I absolutely needed someone to reign me in at the time- most of us did. Very few people are going to get that heated over the subject of how much empathy a school shooter deserves, so I don't think it really needs direction.

 

EDIT: oh my god how the hell did that get past the censor lmao



#9
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I don't really see why threads aren't allowed to explode into a shitstorm in General. That's usually when the most interesting conversations happen, so seeing everything that gets a decent amount of posts in a small period of time moved to debates is kinda disheartening. At least, I lose all interest to post in it.

 

forgot a word there

 

This is a good point.  While I want those same topics to contribute traffic to Debates, they tend to die once they're moved.

 

 

I think Debates should be reserved for threads that have a need for moderated, focused discussion.

 

Certain discussions can get pretty heated but there's no need for said direction unless there's a particularly high potential for it going off track. I'm not going to call Polaris a cockmongling thundercunt because he ascribes more agency to someone who shoots up a school than I do. But I'm a bit more likely to do that on the subject of Net Neutrality, and I was a hell of a lot more likely do that to Winter during the 2016 election (I think I actually did). The latter took me to very bad places and I absolutely needed someone to reign me in at the time- most of us did. Very few people are going to get that heated over the subject of how much empathy a school shooter deserves, so I don't think it really needs direction.

 

EDIT: oh my god how the hell did that get past the censor lmao

 

I'll end up having to create a very fine line determining what warrants direction and what doesn't.  I think that's something we can tackle together if everyone is willing to contribute.


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#10
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Move this to debates I find this offensive.

 

 


Nah but really, I can totally understand why you move things to Debates but the end result (in hindsight, I'm only just now realizing it) is that Debates becomes a dumping ground for all things controversial. 

 

But I think you guys seem to have a good handle on it and look forward to whatever shitstorms I can be a part of in the future of General. :)


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#11
Sunshine Jesse

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This is a good point. While I want those same topics to contribute traffic to Debates, they tend to die once they're moved.



I'll end up having to create a very fine line determining what warrants direction and what doesn't. I think that's something we can tackle together if everyone is willing to contribute.


Sure, I'd be happy to help. I have a lot of experience with writing up rulesets.

#12
Phantom Roxas

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A little bit concerned with some threads that have been posted in General lately. Particularly, one issue seems to be that they could belong in either Misc. or Debates. I realize that this thread is to distinguish debates and discussions, but sometimes I'm not sure if posts are meant to even generate a discussion?

 

For example, there's this thread. As Cow points out, there's no other prompt for discussion. It's just posting excerpts from a book. Given the politically charged nature of that subject, I would think it would be a valuable topic for Debates, except the presentation of that thread - literally just posting the page without offering even the slightest bit 

 

Cow also had to lock this thread because it was posted in both General and Debates. I don't know why, but there was very little reason to post such a thread in both suggestions, and it seems to me like treating the two sections as if there's very little that sets them apart. My concern is that it seems like General is just "Debates Lite", or Debates is just taking General threads and making them more serious, while a complete lack of any seriousness makes threads seem more appropriate for Miscellaneous. Heck, Misc. even has the [Serious] tag for threads, and I find such tags needless because if you're posting a serious topic in Misc. and you don't want that thread to just be shitposting, then why not post such a thread here in General?

 

Debates and Misc. seem to be treated as if they're two opposing extremes, and General is some weird gray area between the two, when I don't believe anything I've just described is what those three sections were designed for. So I would appreciate more distinctions between them.


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#13
Nathanael D. Striker

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@Phantom Roxas Pretty sure the [Serious] was created for AMAs and such.

#14
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I'll address this tonight. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I was aware, but I'll delve deeper tonight.

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#15
Phantom Roxas

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@Phantom Roxas Pretty sure the [Serious] was created for AMAs and such.

 

While I understand that, I still feel like there's more going on than just that.

 

I'll address this tonight. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I was aware, but I'll delve deeper tonight.

 

Just woke up, so until I'm more coherent, I just want to say thank you, and I hope that I expressed my concerns adequately.


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#16
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Thinking on this further, I do agree with Roxas a bit. General has become Debates Lite in the sense that, more often than not, discussions are politically charged and will take a steep turn toward becoming a full blown debate.

With that in mind, I am of course open to ideas for changes in better structuring General so that it's more pleasing and welcoming to all parties. I don't want General to dissuade debaters for fear of their topics getting them in some sort of trouble for its nature.

At the same time, I want General to be as welcoming as Misc. but less shitposty.

What are your thoughts?

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#17
Phantom Roxas

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The main thing I want to distinguish is whether issues are inherent to the sections themselves or just certain members, since we've seen members post threads in General, but then mention they're dropping out of the discussion (Sometimes one that they themselves started) as soon as you move it to Debates. That turn towards a full-fledged debate doesn't seem too step, since it seems more like a General thread that simply gains traction will just be relocated to Debates.

 

So the section itself may not need to be restructured, so much as members may need to be informed more clearly what threads and subjects may be more appropriate for which sections. There are concerns that structural changes are made for the sake of either a single member, or a handful of them, so I don't want to suggest any drastic changes when it's just those few members making this an issue in the first place.


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#18
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it's a topic thing. topics that turn into fully fledged debates can be relocated, but that's not always neccecary, even should they become fully fledged debates. users having passionate opinions worth debating over, isn't the same as a topic brought up specifically for debates. for example, in the TCG/OCG card section, when new cards are released, there's often some form of discussion similar to what occurs in the general threads, where two or three users have differing opinions on something, and it can heat up for a bit. that may count as a debate, but it's not the core intent of the thread itself.

 

in other words, discussion, can become debate, but that does not mean it won't cool down over time. for a examples of that, you'd have to look at topics that actually do occur naturally in the debates thread, for example, gun control is a topic that exists soley in the debates thread, and each new discussion is either a ramp-up in the debate level, or a jump to a new aspect of the topic, that is equally debatable. even though said jumps are usually followed by more and more people jumping off the debate train till it quiets itself down, the debates in and of themselves, are perpetual, and aside from the initial prompts, are the only thing that you will ever find in debates. take politics and abortion for further examples. debates exists for the sole purpose of such conversations it's where you put topics that require a somewhat deeper train of thought than the usual offhand responses. general topics can jump back and forth between this, but do not belong in debates, since as the related forum, they should be expected to have the similar symptoms from time to time ( a few heat ups here and there, but not quite sitting at the level that the main debates topics usually sit at.) other threads in general can turn into this over time, but whether or not its due to a user, or due to the topic in question being a bit deeper. not everybody is willing to jump into the debates area, similar to the RP section, the mere fact that a topic is located there, can be cause for people to abandon topics, which is why leaving them in general with a slight warning (until they become full blown debates) is probably the best course of action.

 

if you feel that a topic is becoming more suited to debates than general. simply point out that taking the topic further will see it relocated to debates.


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#19
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if you feel that a topic is becoming more suited to debates than general. simply point out that taking the topic further will see it relocated to debates.

 

I don't understand what you're saying here.

 

This reads to me like "further discussion will result in the topic being moved".  Isn't that the exact OPPOSITE of what's being asked for?


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#20
Phantom Roxas

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I don't understand what you're saying here.

 

This reads to me like "further discussion will result in the topic being moved".  Isn't that the exact OPPOSITE of what's being asked for?

 

Exactly. I understand the point of such a warning, except what I'm saying is that the warning seems necessary far too often. If users will frequently either begin topics or contribute to the discussion to the point those comments are necessary, those topics should either be moved more swiftly, or simply be posted in the appropriate sections to begin with.


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