(TCG) February 5th Banlist

[Mr. Best Male 2008]

 

I know trap cards aren't that great right now but I have a sinking feeling that this will backfire horribly if they ever are.

 

Might just be PTSD from TeleDAD format though.

 

I don't like Maxx at 0 either. It's pretty much the least offensive hand trap compared to some of the sillier bullshit like Ash.

 

I would much rather get hit with Ash than Maxx C wtf.

 

Ash Blossom is just a "no" Maxx C is just re-branded Vanity' Emptiness with the option of losing by giving your opponent advantage.

[Sunshine Jesse]

I would much rather get hit with Ash than Maxx C wtf.

 

Ash Blossom is just a "no" Maxx C is just re-branded Vanity' Emptiness with the option of losing by giving your opponent advantage.

Maxx might be stronger but I think it's better for the game because there's more interaction involved. An inconvenient Ash can ruin your whole turn whereas an inconvenient Maxx C at least technically gives you a choice.

 

 

Solemn is bad, Oh, you negated my card for 4k?

 

*vomits 5k worth of damage on board with 2 cards*

 

GET REKT

I'm of the opinion that Solemn has a lot more potential in the right kind of format because it's literally always usable no matter the game state and always provides a strong effect. It might not be that good now but it'd be very easy for it to become the strongest counter trap in the game again.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

very rare in modern ygo for negation of any one thing to be able to stop a charge is my pt

[Mr. Best Male 2008]

Maxx might be stronger but I think it's better for the game because there's more interaction involved. An inconvenient Ash can ruin your whole turn whereas an inconvenient Maxx C at least technically gives you a choice.

 

 

I'm of the opinion that Solemn has a lot more potential in the right kind of format because it's literally always usable no matter the game state and always provides a strong effect. It might not be that good now but it'd be very easy for it to become the strongest counter trap in the game again.

 

It gives you a choice which is 90% of the time the wrong choice. Ash is a very fair and balanced card and people jabroni about it too much.

[Blake]

I feel better now seeing that I’m not the only person who’s more in favor of all the hand traps that aren’t Maxx.

 

Going first and getting funked because my opponent drew a card that punishes me for simply playing isn’t fun.

 

I don’t mind if my search gets stopped, because as annoying as it can be, you can bounce back. You’re both down a card.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I feel better now seeing that I’m not the only person who’s more in favor of all the hand traps that aren’t Maxx.

 

Going first and getting funked because my opponent drew a card that punishes me for simply playing isn’t fun.

 

I don’t mind if my search gets stopped, because as annoying as it can be, you can bounce back. You’re both down a card.

I'm sorry, you have not innate right to pull off your stupid loops of 25 special summons to summon 2-3 omni negates

 

You're literally not entitled to that. That's not what playing the game is. 

 

TCG is actively dumbing down the game buy removing anything that even minor inconveniences your types

 

The word for this is "babying"

[VCR_CAT]

I'm sorry, you have not innate right to pull off your stupid loops of 25 special summons to summon 2-3 omni negates

 

You're literally not entitled to that. That's not what playing the game is. 

 

TCG is actively dumbing down the game buy removing anything that even minor inconveniences your types

 

The word for this is "babying"

 

This isn't an argument, this is a gross exaggeration at best.

 

Maxx "C" doesn't do aannyyything to make that stuff "healthier". It doesn't "slow down the game". You're talking about some silly, idyllic scenario that clearly happens all the time where both players always have Maxx "C" all the time and it's a matter of minimizing plays to minimize gains in advantage, but also that's not how it works? It's like saying "Yeah well, Vanity's was super healthy for the game because it stopped all those silly omni-combos".

 

No, it didn't. It didn't "slow the game down", it became a card that if one player has while the other doesn't, it means that, by dropping it, their opponent either gives you a ton of cards OR you're forced to put out a very sub-par board. There's no "interaction", there's no "playing around"; whether the challenge is taken or not the challenged loses and the challenger wins. Having it be a +0 alone is still really good, because unlike Ash it means it wasn't a dead card; it was a cantrip that shut down your opponent so you could sweep in.

 

Saying Maxx "C" is a "minor inconvenience" pretty much just displays about as much as you actually know about higher level play in this game, to be frank.

 

Also lmao how does this stupid "entitlement" argument even work? So we're not entitled to plays but you're entitled to shut them down? Maybe you're not entitled to having one-card shut-down plays and you should actually learn how to deal with those fields instead. You know there's a word for putting out cards that people think will "fix omni-combo plays", and it's called "babying".

 

 

Yeah frick no, I'll take Ash over Maxx "C". It's like trying to compare Vanity's to Bottomless Trap Hole; a one-for-one disruption ends up being harder to use than a blanket denial because then you actually need to understand timing and targets; knowing what to hit for the maximum impact rather than just throwing out a card as soon as anything looks like it's going to remotely special summon.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Maxx c is not a minor inconvenience. It's a major pain in the ass cause it forces restraint. You have a very clear choice to make.

 

At three VCR, players both tend to have it, or have ash or designator to shut it down

 

It did. The unlimiting of maxx c has correlated strongly with an almost doubling of OCG match lengths

 

Get off your high horse and stop putting words in my mouth.

 

The choice is planning for SS plays that you can cut off. It's not hard if healthy deck building was every encouraged this side of the pond

[VCR_CAT]

Maxx c is not a minor inconvenience. It's a major pain in the ass cause it forces restraint. You have a very clear choice to make.

 

At three VCR, players both tend to have it, or have ash or designator to shut it down

 

It did. The unlimiting of maxx c has correlated strongly with an almost doubling of OCG match lengths

 

Get off your high horse and stop putting words in my mouth.

 

The choice is planning for SS plays that you can cut off. It's not hard if healthy deck building was every encouraged this side of the pond

 

You said "Minor Inconvenience", and you said that specifically in the case of Maxx "C" as if to downplay how much of an impact it has on the game to drive your "point" home.

 

I mean, you still haven't really answered how in the world people aren't entitled to their plays yet they're entitled to shut down plays? So are we entitled to plays or are we not entitled to plays?

 

and what "High Horse", you're the one going off about "babying" and that sort of nonsense.

[Sunshine Jesse]

It gives you a choice which is 90% of the time the wrong choice. Ash is a very fair and balanced card and people jabroni about it too much.

Yeah I guess you're right.

[Darj]

I actually am on a similar boat to Winter. Maxx C kept all these "killer board" decks at bay, and with it gone, these decks have more chances of successfully setting up, and practically win the game right there. IDK you but I don't enjoy these kind of formats where such decks dominate, although to be fair, that's a personal preference; I would very much prefer for the game to a few steps back and for "1st turn killer boards" stop being a thing, but I don't get to decide that, right?

Now, I'm saying that I find Maxx fine, fair nor anything. I don't like the card, and it's strong, but nowadays is what I would call a "necessary evil". OCG did the right move IMO by unlimiting it, since the killer board decks are not going out of the meta anytime soon, and they even continued to support them (e.g. Troymares?). But with Maxx C gone in TCG... I cannot but think that things will get messy. It will be interesting to see how the TCG meta develops and compare it with OCG, now that the former is closer than ever to the latter IIRC, with the unban of power cards in this banlist like Reborn and Judgment.

[vla1ne]

those power cards like solemn and bottomless might help the game slow back down in the absence of mad maxx.  i don't like getting hit with maxx "C" anymore than other people, but it was the kind of card that gave rogues a bigger boost than meta. meta right now is two card special summon loops that can break boards and gain advantage if not shut down hard. lower tier rogue has difficulty keeping up, even with ash blossom. maxx "C" was the best card in those cases, because it allowed you to actually get something back to maintain your own advantage. decks that focused on a slower grind, like gladiator beasts, ect, all love(d) maxx C because it prevented them from getting BTFO by faster paced decks, while taking minimal damage in return if hit by it. 

 

in short, sure, higher tier decks get hurt a lot by it, but as a lower tier player (who is fond of slower stun decks), i'm gonna miss having it to counter said higher tier decks.

[Blake]

You guys are acting like Maxx is just a stall card.

 

It says “lose the game or give your opponent enough advantage to win the game” more often than not. It’s not a stall

 

Also, you kinda do have the right to play the game. Konami has chosen what Yugioh has become, and Maxx C punished that. When that is the goal of near enough eveeey competent deck, and Maxx can steal wins in its own right, Maxx is the funking problem.

 

It’s not necessary. You have plenty of handtraps to play. You have evenly matched to break giant boards. It gives the player with it against an opponent going first the unfair advantage of dictating what you do on your setup turn, without taking anything from them.

 

And the worst part? Maxx isn’t even outstanding after T1. Decks often have the ability to just laugh and OFK at that point, though not always. And if they don’t, it then says “lose the game”. If they can break your board and kill you, Maxx does nothing.

 

It boils the gamestste down a stupid amount, and you don’t know this game if you think it improves it by giving a pre-emotive answer to “killer boards”... but, again, that’s Yugioh. If you don’t like that aspect, don’t play. It’s your fault for imposing your standards for what a game made by other people should be.

[Darj]

You guys are acting like Maxx is just a stall card.

 

It says “lose the game or give your opponent enough advantage to win the game” more often than not. It’s not a stall

 

Also, you kinda do have the right to play the game. Konami has chosen what Yugioh has become, and Maxx C punished that. When that is the goal of near enough eveeey competent deck, and Maxx can steal wins in its own right, Maxx is the funking problem.

 

In that case, I would have preferred for swarmy and laddering decks, or perhaps the meta itself, to adapt to Maxx C, I guess kind of like what OCG did. But that's TCG's call, not mine.

 

It’s not necessary. You have plenty of handtraps to play. You have evenly matched to break giant boards. It gives the player with it against an opponent going first the unfair advantage of dictating what you do on your setup turn, without taking anything from them.

 

 If it's not necessary, did it really need the ban, then?

 

It boils the gamestste down a stupid amount, and you don’t know this game if you think it improves it by giving a pre-emotive answer to “killer boards”... but, again, that’s Yugioh. If you don’t like that aspect, don’t play. It’s your fault for imposing your standards for what a game made by other people should be.

 

I fully understand this, and it's why I currently have no motivation for playing in the top tier. Heck, I haven't played YGO in a while actually, but that's a different matter. I do still enjoy checking what's up to date with the meta, watching some gameplays, etc.

 

Rather than crying for Maxx C, I'm curious to see how the TCG meta develops with Maxx C out of the picture.

[Blake]

The OCG has to suck it up and deal with it. It didn’t especially adapt. It just left it at 3.

Not being necessary was in response to you calling it a necessary evil. Don’t nitpick.
 

If you haven’t played Yugioh in a while, keep your nose out of serious discussions about it, without at least conceding such.

[Darj]

Hey, I said I am up to date and check what's up. I don't really need to watch every tournament match and play every top tier deck to know what's up, do I?

 

"Necessary evil" was a figure of speech, hence the quotation marks . Pretty sure you got what I meant: it deters killer boards from setting up their game-winning boards on Turn 1. Also, Maxx C wasn't always the absolute answer to such boards. I remember watching some swarm decks being Maxx C'd on Turn 1 and still end up winning the game by adapting their opening plays. Like Evenly Matched, it's a card that helped you counter said boards and increase your chances of (I will exaggerate a bit here but at the moment IDK the right way to put it so please bear with me) actually playing YGO when going second, but now it won't be available in TCG.

 

Anyway, for the record, I'm not saying the ban of Maxx C was a good or bad move, it's just another difference between TCG and OCG.

[Blake]

Hey, I said I am up to date and check what's up. I don't really need to watch every tournament match and play every top tier deck to know what's up, do I?

 

"Necessary evil" was a figure of speech, hence the quotation marks . Pretty sure you got what I meant: it deters killer boards from setting up their game-winning boards on Turn 1. Also, Maxx C wasn't always the absolute answer to such boards. I remember watching some swarm decks being Maxx C'd on Turn 1 and still end up winning the game by adapting their opening plays. Like Evenly Matched, it's a card that helped you counter said boards and increase your chances of (I will exaggerate a bit here but at the moment IDK the right way to put it so please bear with me) actually playing YGO when going second, but now it won't be available in TCG.

 

Anyway, for the record, I'm not saying the ban of Maxx C was a good or bad move, it's just another difference between TCG and OCG.

When you oversimplify the gamestate like that, it definitely seems like you're not.

 

And I was responding to it in kind. I wasn't nitpicking, I was saying that it doesn't fill that slot at all. Evenly Matched does the job of Maxx, but infinitely more fairly. You shouldn't be able to just use a turn skip on your opponent on their first time. 

 

As Krow said, 90+% of the time, taking the Maxx "C" challenge is incorrect. Yes, you can still win, but it's not exactly realistic to happen at any given time. Being such a huge chance of dicking the opponent is still dumb.

[goodfusion]

Monster Reborn is going in my roid deck for sure. And pretty much all my other decks.

 

I'm also looking forward to 3 BLS Envoy and 3 Prep o' rites!

[Darj]

When you oversimplify the gamestate like that, it definitely seems like you're not.

 

And I was responding to it in kind. I wasn't nitpicking, I was saying that it doesn't fill that slot at all. Evenly Matched does the job of Maxx, but infinitely more fairly. You shouldn't be able to just use a turn skip on your opponent on their first time. 

 

As Krow said, 90+% of the time, taking the Maxx "C" challenge is incorrect. Yes, you can still win, but it's not exactly realistic to happen at any given time. Being such a huge chance of dicking the opponent is still dumb.

 

Right, my fault. That was my attempt of keeping it short and going straight to the point instead of delving too much in the intricate flows of the metagame.

 

Funnily enough, I find Evenly Matched just as unfair, if not more, because that one outright takes almost everything away from your board unless you include a negation for it in your setup.

 

Admittedly, I am biased by the other side of the spectrum. I mean, from the perspective of the killer board player it sure is nice to set up your board with little to no disruptions, but on the receiving end... facing a 1st turn killer board is unsettling.

 

The OCG has to suck it up and deal with it. It didn’t especially adapt. It just left it at 3.

 

Also, got curious on on this. You say "suck it up", but isn't that also a way to adapt? Now I want to look up how exactly OCG handled and is handling x3 Maxx Cs.

[Blake]

Negation cards go a long way in stopping Evenly Matched. It serves as solid "bait" at worst, and great removal at best. It's only as good as your opponent allows it to be with their setup. It's important to keep it in mind as you develop a board, which means it's an interactive element that encourages forethought.

 

Maxx is just "welp they had it. guess i'll die."

 

The only cards that stop Maxx are Ash and Droll, and Droll fucks you over at the same time in a lot of those scenarios.

Also, hot take: I love facing those hard to break boards. It's fun to try and figure out how you get through them and do your thing, regardless of what they want. Really teaches you how to value your cards, like with Evenly Matched.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The OCG has to suck it up and deal with it. It didn’t especially adapt. It just left it at 3.

 

Not being necessary was in response to you calling it a necessary evil. Don’t nitpick.

 

If you haven’t played Yugioh in a while, keep your nose out of serious discussions about it, without at least conceding such.

OCG realized that having it at lower numbers than three created tangible desparity between players seeing it. The spyral combos often ended in 20-30 summons black. Nowadays most combos can cut off and leave in a good spot after 1-2 draws.

 

People didn't have to "suck it up" it was wanted

Maxx isnt "I guess I'll die" it's I guess I won't special summon 20 times to summon 2 Omni negates and quick play bouncer

[Mr. Best Male 2008]

Right, my fault. That was my attempt of keeping it short and going straight to the point instead of delving too much in the intricate flows of the metagame.

 

Funnily enough, I find Evenly Matched just as unfair, if not more, because that one outright takes almost everything away from your board unless you include a negation for it in your setup.

 

Admittedly, I am biased by the other side of the spectrum. I mean, from the perspective of the killer board player it sure is nice to set up your board with little to no disruptions, but on the receiving end... facing a 1st turn killer board is unsettling.

 

 

Also, got curious on on this. You say "suck it up", but isn't that also a way to adapt? Now I want to look up how exactly OCG handled and is handling x3 Maxx Cs.

 

Evenly Matched is a balanced card. Unlike Rageki, I can't game you the same turn I activate it. It essentially makes the first two turns of the game "turn one". It balances the disparity between going first and going second.

[Blake]

OCG realized that having it at lower numbers than three created tangible desparity between players seeing it. The spyral combos often ended in 20-30 summons black. Nowadays most combos can cut off and leave in a good spot after 1-2 draws.

 

People didn't have to "suck it up" it was wanted

Maxx isnt "I guess I'll die" it's I guess I won't special summon 20 times to summon 2 Omni negates and quick play bouncer

Winter, have you ever considered that your opinion isn't the majority opinion? That what you want from the game isn't what money says players want from the game?

 

Maybe OCG prefers it. TCG doesn't. They've always had different midnsets. Neither is objectively right or wrong. But coming in here and asserting that people are wimps for not wanting a card that wins the game is just asinine.

 

Not to mention that you ignore that the turn 2 player can do the same thing.

[Darj]

Negation cards go a long way in stopping Evenly Matched. It serves as solid "bait" at worst, and great removal at best. It's only as good as your opponent allows it to be with their setup. It's important to keep it in mind as you develop a board, which means it's an interactive element that encourages forethought.

 

Maxx is just "welp they had it. guess i'll die."

 

The only cards that stop Maxx are Ash and Droll, and Droll fucks you over at the same time in a lot of those scenarios.

 

Also, hot take: I love facing those hard to break boards. It's fun to try and figure out how you get through them and do your thing, regardless of what they want. Really teaches you how to value your cards, like with Evenly Matched.

 

Agreed with this. It encouraged killer boards to include a negation for Evenly Matched and be more keen on reading the opponent's moves to anticipate the card. And it involves mind games and smart plays from both players like baiting, etc. And right, as Krow pointed out to me, not being able to play it before the Battle Phase is a major difference compared to Raigeki, nukes, etc.

 

OCG later introduced Designator from the Grave to stop Maxx so that's another counter there, but this is not exactly relevant in this discussion. By the way, this reminds me when TCG Limited Lawnmowing while OCG left it at 3 and let Ash Blossom take care of it after it was released later on.

 

Now I'm curious on how many times you succeed as breaking such boards. Please don't take this the wrong way: I'm not challenging nor doubting you nor anything, I legitimately would like to get a better idea of your success rate.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Winter, have you ever considered that your opinion isn't the majority opinion? That what you want from the game isn't what money says players want from the game?

 

Maybe OCG prefers it. TCG doesn't. They've always had different midnsets. Neither is objectively right or wrong. But coming in here and asserting that people are wimps for not wanting a card that wins the game is just asinine.

 

Not to mention that you ignore that the turn 2 player can do the same thing.

Black this argument is tantamount to saying speed limits are bad because they cause fines

 

Maxx C forces you to segment your long plays to optimal cut off points. It is objectively wrong for you to feel you're entitled to a game where you can just make all the plays you want without interruption. 

 

Yugioh is not solitare