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Custom Card and Constructive Criticism


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#1
VCR_CAT

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It's come a few times. "Hey YCM?" they ask. "How come you don't post feedback no more?"

 

There are any number of reasons for why people don't post feedback on cards. Minor ones that range from person-to-person have to do with a general drive and willingness to look into cards and drum up some meaningful feedback. But, there's a bit of a tougher pill to swallow in this regard, and it definitely becomes probably the main reason I, myself, have stopped posting feedback in other card threads.

 

YCM is terrible at receiving criticism and workshopping.

 

There's really no way to gently say this. A lot of cards that get posted are, frankly, not a phase where I would say "this is fine as-is." That's okay, nobody gets it their first try. I'm still doing multiple drafts of my work before I post it. This is what feedback is for; to nail down the trouble spots and refine the work into something better.

 

The problem is, it doesn't feel like anybody wants to do that. It doesn't matter how kindly I've worded criticism in the past, anything short of "looks great good job" has been met with strongly defensive attitudes. This is a great discouragement when it comes to giving feedback, because if few people want to actually participate in constructive feedback, then why bother? It becomes the most subtly unfriendly section if people decide they don't like what they're hearing, and it's too easy to cross that line.

 

It's not like this isn't something that can't be fixed either. It's not so much an issue where we need to teach people how to make good cards (as Black said in another thread, standards change on a regular basis and anything short of being up-to-date on the meta-game is more than likely going to fall short as a foundation), but people need to learn how to give and receive feedback.

 

I've participated in a pretty decent number of classes in my university career that have had workshopping elements, and these are some tips I can give to make the experience better for everyone:

 

Be Willing to Kill Your Darlings - This is the biggest one that I see ignored. People need to keep in mind that no aspect of their creative work is off the table for changes, reworking, or being scrapped entirely. Cards are no exception; if something just isn't working or the work is being held back because of it, then you need to be willing to do something about it. Nothing is off the table.

 

Don't Seek Other People to Fix Your Problems - A lot of people, myself included, will not spell out the solution for you. Good criticism will show you the problem spots, then at most will give you some ideas on how to go about changing it. Everything else should be your ideas; it's your work, so make it your work. If you really have no idea where to go, ask for suggestions, but if your response is going to be asking for specific direction then you're going to be turning off anyone who wants to give you feedback. Nobody's looking to make your cards for you.

 

Practice the "Sandwich Technique" - This is more or less a way of sandwiching your criticism between compliments. Overall it makes things easier to digest for people and is a general common courtesy. However, don't force yourself to look for anything to like. Sometimes, and this does happen even here, a given work will be bad to the point where there isn't any actual compliments to give. But that doesn't mean you can't offer that criticism in a polite manner that helps someone improve. Speaking of...

 

Criticism is not a Personal Attack - Like I said, nobody gets it on their first try. Everyone's designs will have their faults, and if your work is anything short of good then that's no point to be discouraged. Creative work takes practice and revision, and having that outside direction to help you look at what needs fixing is a huge asset to working towards something even better. Receive criticism graciously, and use to make your work better. Nobody gets it right away, but that doesn't mean you won't get there eventually. Of course, you definitely won't so long as you don't listen to criticism.

 

Don't Post if you Don't Want It - There's no point to posting a work for feedback if you're not willing to receive anything short of "looks great". Putting your work out on any sort of public sphere is going to expose you to a lot of different views and takes, and that should be kept in mind as you're doing it. If that doesn't sound like something you want, then show it to friends or people you trust in a more private setting first.

 

 

 

The lack of feedback has been an ongoing issue on YCM, and it should be addressed in one way or another, but I absolutely believe that the general reception of feedback in CC has become a point of why nobody wants to post feedback. Taking the time to give feedback is one thing, but there are too many instances of some very negative reception to make being in the position of giving feedback an enjoyable one.


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#2
Nathanael D. Striker

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I'm going to go off on a limb here and say this problem us exacerbated in Card Contests and 1v1 due to its seemingly competitive nature?

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#3
Tythe

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I'm going to go off on a limb here and say this problem us exacerbated in Card Contests and 1v1 due to its seemingly competitive nature?

 
Mm.  Are you saying the problem with critiquing as a whole (card contests as well as the CC section), or just in critiquing Card Contests/1v1s?  If the former, I disagree simply because the fundamental idea of posting between the sections is just completely different.  The thing about contests is that you are supposed to put forth something fully polished and designed to show your scope in whatever area is being tested, right?  That means that "constructive criticism" isn't really the goal of a judge so much as comparing how one person's design is better/worse than another person/persons'.  Ultimately, that means that there is a different fundamental problem with people not posting as judges in contests/1v1s as there is posting as a critic in CC.  As a judge, you can critique, but that seems like more of a sideline thing and is one that a contestant pursues themselves if they actively want to get better.
 
...and I think that's partially where the problem lies.  On top of what VCR said, there is that underlying tone of people who post not actively wanting to get better, hence, not wanting criticism, hence, people not wanting to post a critique that they know will fall on deaf ears.
 
I know that I fall under this sometimes, especially when I design cards for the AGM.  I just want to get in, post a set, then let it die without a look or without wanting anyone to come in and poke holes in it, especially when I know it isn't my best design.  I think that it is important for VCR's final point ("don't post if you don't want it"), to be ingrained somewhat in both designers and critics' heads alike.  It makes sure that designers are actually posting that which they feel is worthy of a "good job", and it gives critics a full licence to do that which the site needs: post criticism for the betterment of the designer.


Hello, fine peoples!

Oh hey, something notable I guess

#4
VCR_CAT

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 I know that I fall under this sometimes, especially when I design cards for the AGM.  I just want to get in, post a set, then let it die without a look or without wanting anyone to come in and poke holes in it, especially when I know it isn't my best design.  I think that it is important for VCR's final point ("don't post if you don't want it"), to be ingrained somewhat in both designers and critics' heads alike.  It makes sure that designers are actually posting that which they feel is worthy of a "good job", and it gives critics a full licence to do that which the site needs: post criticism for the betterment of the designer.

 

It's not so much about encouraging the posting of what people feel deserves a "good job". I did my best to write this post without discouraging people from posting low-quality content that needs work. The point is more about that if a person can't handle criticism, even when it's presented politely and constructively, they shouldn't post anything, whether it's good or bad. Looking for feedback is important if someone wants to make a creative project good, but if they're looking for that feedback they should be prepared for all kinds that they receive and be able to receive it in kind.

 

It just comes to mind as I've seen a similar situation arise in a YGO Discord I'm in. Someone will post a deck asking for critique, but then proceeds to be defensive and refuses to listen to any of the critiques or suggestions at all, which prompted one member to ask "Then why did you post it if you're not even willing to listen to criticism?" That's the sort of situation I'm referring to.


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#5
Nathanael D. Striker

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Mm. Are you saying the problem with critiquing as a whole (card contests as well as the CC section), or just in critiquing Card Contests/1v1s? If the former, I disagree simply because the fundamental idea of posting between the sections is just completely different. The thing about contests is that you are supposed to put forth something fully polished and designed to show your scope in whatever area is being tested, right? That means that "constructive criticism" isn't really the goal of a judge so much as comparing how one person's design is better/worse than another person/persons'. Ultimately, that means that there is a different fundamental problem with people not posting as judges in contests/1v1s as there is posting as a critic in CC. As a judge, you can critique, but that seems like more of a sideline thing and is one that a contestant pursues themselves if they actively want to get better.

...and I think that's partially where the problem lies. On top of what VCR said, there is that underlying tone of people who post not actively wanting to get better, hence, not wanting criticism, hence, people not wanting to post a critique that they know will fall on deaf ears.

I know that I fall under this sometimes, especially when I design cards for the AGM. I just want to get in, post a set, then let it die without a look or without wanting anyone to come in and poke holes in it, especially when I know it isn't my best design. I think that it is important for VCR's final point ("don't post if you don't want it"), to be ingrained somewhat in both designers and critics' heads alike. It makes sure that designers are actually posting that which they feel is worthy of a "good job", and it gives critics a full licence to do that which the site needs: post criticism for the betterment of the designer.


I realize I terribly phrased my question for VCR. I was asking if the problem was worse in those areas compared to CC as a whole due to its competitive nature. I wasn't making the statement that it is, just posing the question.

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#6
Darj

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Be Willing to Kill Your Darlings - This is the biggest one that I see ignored. People need to keep in mind that no aspect of their creative work is off the table for changes, reworking, or being scrapped entirely. Cards are no exception; if something just isn't working or the work is being held back because of it, then you need to be willing to do something about it. Nothing is off the table.

 

I agree with everything except for this, which I'm not too sure about.

I used to think like this, but some reviewers have shown me that most cards can be fixed, "salvaged", etc. without entirely scrapping it, and after this realization now it feels to me that sending the card maker "back to the drawing board" is the lazy out, so to speak, when reviewers should be suggesting to fix the card so it actually works without forsaking its concept, essence, etc.

Although I myself have resorted to scrapping cards entirely because I couldn't see them working, I still wonder if it could have been fixed somehow, which is where the thoughts from reviewers would have come in handy.


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— Don’t forget.
Always, somewhere,
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you are not alone.

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#7
VCR_CAT

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I agree with everything except for this, which I'm not too sure about.

I used to think like this, but some reviewers have shown me that most cards can be fixed, "salvaged", etc. without entirely scrapping it, and after this realization now it feels to me that sending the card maker "back to the drawing board" is the lazy out, so to speak, when reviewers should be suggesting to fix the card so it actually works without forsaking its concept, essence, etc.

Although I myself have resorted to scrapping cards entirely because I couldn't see them working, I still wonder if it could have been fixed somehow, which is where the thoughts from reviewers would have come in handy.

 

Then you're not getting what I'm talking about. "Being willing to kill your darlings" is a long-standing philosophy when it comes to criticism and feedback with creative work. No aspect of your card should be off the table in fixing, changing, or removing. Period. If there's a part of your card, such as a gimmick, a stat, a name, or whatever, or even the card itself, that you're not willing to change, then you need to change your attitude towards it.

 

If something in your theme isn't working, then you should change it. "But I like it" isn't an excuse for something to remain as it is if it's a problem.

 

And yes, the creator should be willing to remove or completely restart a card ("back to the drawing board") if its core idea isn't a good one. Nobody here is above that.


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#8
God Emperor Cow

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This is neato.

Also my small experience in CC making cards I actually got a fair amount of comments but that was mostly I think because I responded positively to each one.

Though I will say it got frustrating when I made edits and the comments died down...so I suppose that's something that could be an issue. People dropping in for a critique and not coming back to comment on fixes.


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#9
Nathanael D. Striker

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Then you're not getting what I'm talking about. "Being willing to kill your darlings" is a long-standing philosophy when it comes to criticism and feedback with creative work. No aspect of your card should be off the table in fixing, changing, or removing. Period. If there's a part of your card, such as a gimmick, a stat, a name, or whatever, or even the card itself, that you're not willing to change, then you need to change your attitude towards it.
 
If something in your theme isn't working, then you should change it. "But I like it" isn't an excuse for something to remain as it is if it's a problem.
 
And yes, the creator should be willing to remove or completely restart a card ("back to the drawing board") if its core idea isn't a good one. Nobody here is above that.


Shouldn't scrapping a card be the last resort option? When I try working with an idea, my main mindset is making it as balanced as I can, even with suggestions. If such a goal is not feasible, going back to the drawing board to rethink the idea or simply dropping the idea and moving on to the next one is considered. The point I'm trying to make is that, if possible, the essence of a card should be maintained for as long as possible.

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#10
VCR_CAT

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Shouldn't scrapping a card be the last resort option? When I try working with an idea, my main mindset is making it as balanced as I can, even with suggestions. If such a goal is not feasible, going back to the drawing board to rethink the idea or simply dropping the idea and moving on to the next one is considered. The point I'm trying to make is that, if possible, the essence of a card should be maintained for as long as possible.

 

...I'm trying to speak in as uncertain terms per situation as possible because you're coming up with hypotheticals about a gigantic range of possible scenarios. You people can come up with as many scenarios as possible where it's the right thing to do, and as many as possible where the concept can be salvaged and improved.

 

So how about everyone just read what I'm talking about and stop acting like I'm saying something like "so you have to scrap all bad ideas".


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#11
Darj

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Then you're not getting what I'm talking about. "Being willing to kill your darlings" is a long-standing philosophy when it comes to criticism and feedback with creative work. No aspect of your card should be off the table in fixing, changing, or removing. Period. If there's a part of your card, such as a gimmick, a stat, a name, or whatever, or even the card itself, that you're not willing to change, then you need to change your attitude towards it.

 

If something in your theme isn't working, then you should change it. "But I like it" isn't an excuse for something to remain as it is if it's a problem.

 

And yes, the creator should be willing to remove or completely restart a card ("back to the drawing board") if its core idea isn't a good one. Nobody here is above that.

 

I see. I did misunderstood you. I agree with this. If you want suggestions, you should be open to changing all of it if necessary.

 

That made me think of users that appear to post mostly to show their cards, and not so much to change it. In those cases IMO it would be welcomed if they used some kind of tag, let's say [Showcase], to let readers know he/she isn't taking suggestions nor asking for them. But that's a different matter.


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#12
Dova

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I can't really say I have experience with this. I can't recall any instance in the past year where someone responded badly to a review of mine, and I haven't seen in anything in Advanced that exemplifies this. A quick overview of Casual doesn't seem to show this either. I always thought it was a lack of motivation, time, and/or perceived lack of knowledge on the subject to even consider providing input in the first place.

 

That's not to say I don't agree with all of your points in regards to making this an even better CC community. Even the being willing to scrap an idea, which is the most painful. It needs to be a last resort, but a resort nonetheless; these are your cards after all, the ones you designed. You can make them completely functional and workable, but if they're not part of your original vision, something is definitely lost.



#13
Dova

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Something I've noticed, however, is that instead of getting negative feedback, the alternative I seem to get instead of people being grateful (which does happen quite a lot of the time anyway) is simply...nothing. No response. For example, old SK79LinkXyz's Yukai set he bumped forever, and then I posted a comment, and there's no response. This also happens a lot of the time with Thomas Zero's sets. This makes me think that any comment I make will simply be ignored, and the archetype is just to show; they just can't continue bumping it after my comment without showing that they've read it.



#14
Flash Flyer - Sakura

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Something I've noticed, however, is that instead of getting negative feedback, the alternative I seem to get instead of people being grateful (which does happen quite a lot of the time anyway) is simply...nothing. No response. For example, old SK79LinkXyz's Yukai set he bumped forever, and then I posted a comment, and there's no response. This also happens a lot of the time with Thomas Zero's sets. This makes me think that any comment I make will simply be ignored, and the archetype is just to show; they just can't continue bumping it after my comment without showing that they've read it.

 
I do have to agree with Dova on the bolded, based on what I've seen during daily checks of my section and when I CnC certain members.
 
A lot of the time, certain users do just bump it up without either acknowledging the critique (either verbally and/or liking the review if it's good enough), or in this case, just don't bother to reply. This gives off the impression that they don't care about critique and it's a waste of our time, especially if they post a new thread soon after without looking.
 
(You don't have to reply immediately, as we know you have a life outside this site and stuff happens, but handle those things first BEFORE you make a new thread or bump the thread up. Show that you at least bothered to read what people said to you.)
 

That made me think of users that appear to post mostly to show their cards, and not so much to change it. In those cases IMO it would be welcomed if they used some kind of tag, let's say [Showcase], to let readers know he/she isn't taking suggestions nor asking for them. But that's a different matter.

 
A Showcase tag was considered for Casual back when ABC made his suggestion thread, but it was dropped because too many things to remember (trying to slim down the rulebook because it's still partially derived from Advanced). Also because the Showcase thing is counterproductive to what CC stands for, though I noted the fact that some users don't like critique. 
 
Right now, their best option would probably be in Free Card Design (which does allow for light-hearted replies that they probably want anyway). It's impossible to make an area where no one can reply to your stuff (as it'll just turn off anyone who wants to say something). 
 
Though again, I haven't seen these types of users in recent times (though there was a small handful of them in early 2016 iirc).

 

My thoughts on the points in the OP

 
tl;dr
 
I basically agree with the stuff in there with some reservations, though I haven't seen a lot of those things recently in Custom Cards (at least outside #1 and #4 for the most part). A few years ago, perhaps, but my memory is hazy because there's other stuff I have to remember offline. 


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