discussion DIVINE monsters in Advanced Cards

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Like I mentioned in the FAQ thread, the policy that currently bars new Divine-Beast/Creator God and/or DIVINE-Attribute monsters from this section is being looked at. I am also well aware that some users have voiced disagreement with it over the years, though it's there for a reason (which is explained below). 
 

 
Current policy and why it exists in the first place.
 
Those of you who frequent this area (and at least looked over the rulebook at some given point in time) should know it, but for those who don't or it's unclear, let's explain it in full.
 

Any new DIVINE-Attribute and/or Divine-Beast (Creator God) monsters are currently barred from Advanced Cards and must be posted in the other sections (such as Casual or Free). 
 
However, this does not bar you from posting new SUPPORT cards that aren't Divine-Beast / Creator God or DIVINE-Attribute in this section, nor errata the original God cards; provided you write the appropriate design notes needed for Advanced.

 
(Retrains of them are still on the fence; they technically ARE the same God cards but just revamped with different names. For the time being, I'm okaying these.)
 
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I've said this a few times in the past, and most recently to another user yesterday in their retrain threads, but the policy itself has been here even before I took the reins as CC moderator. The reasoning boils down to the following:
 
1. Design and flavor purposes
 
The God cards are considered to be a "special" class of monsters due to their role within the first series, and as a seasonal thing for R for Wicked Beasts (though they were technically dark equivalents of the original gods), GX for Sacred Beasts and 5Ds for Aesirs / Polar Star Gods. Recall that Divine-Beast / DIVINE do have some perks over the other 23 regular Types and 6 Attributes.
 
Also recall that the anime stopped showcasing Divine-Beasts from the ZEXAL era onwards, and the three other cases were retconned to regular monsters. 
 
Other things to consider that all of the above cases are based on actual religious figures and deities (well, least the original Gods and Aesirs). Wickeds are just dark counterparts of the former and latter technically draws from Judeo-Christianity, but not really on actual gods (Raviel / Armityle are based on angelic figures).
 
2. Playability-wise
 
At the time of writing, we are only given 3 DIVINE support cards altogether; two of them (The True Name and Mound of the Bound Creator) are open for further design, whereas Ra's Disciple (while he technically counts as one) is limited to the original God cards.
 
Given that, there isn't much for you to work with in terms of making the God cards "good", especially in the power creep that is the current metagame.
 
You can try to make your own support cards, which are permitted in this section (but just not making them DIVINE or Divine-Beast). 
 
Why do we care about flavor and design?
 
All of you know by now that Advanced Cards are held to higher standards in terms of playability and design. This just means that while you have freedom to do whatever you'd like in cardmaking, it means that you have to put in some thought and do your research.
 
In the context of Divine-Beasts, this means not slapping it onto any random card you want. You need to at least base it on an actual deity (doesn't have to be mainstream/ones that have been thoroughly researched, however make sure it exists). In the sense of fictional characters who are actual gods in their franchises, you should just stick with the regular Type/Attribute. 
 
[spoiler=My opinion on the matter.] 
I am open to loosening it, but if I do, the following standards will be in effect.
 
1. Must be based on a deity from an actual religion / cultural pantheon, and provide a link to information on them. 
 
I am well aware that certain pantheons (or deities thereof) do not have adequate information on them on Wikipedia and elsewhere [normally for Oceania/Pacific deities, folk religions and certain minor deities). Thus, you may use other sources.
 
It is also expected that you do your research on them, else they get shifted to Casual or Free, based on quality.
 
2. Make them relevant for the competitive game state.
 
There's a reason why the Gods aren't used competitively, and mostly because of their Tribute requirements and so forth in getting them going. If they are to be allowed in here, you'll have to give them the support they need to survive Kaijus, ABC, Link format, etc. 
 
At the same time, you are required to make sure they aren't too easy to summon.
 
3. Must be Level 10.
 
This takes into account Mound support and otherwise standard convention. The Creator of Light exists at Level 12, yes, but it's just a Duel winner and doesn't amount to more than that. 

 

Ideally, you should not have to make a Divine-Beast that isn't Level 10, though you would still receive The True Name support otherwise. 

 

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Right now, I'm neutral on the matter. I haven't seen the need to actually make a DIVINE / Divine-Beast monster in any part of CC; mostly due to their lack of support (and yeah, flavor reasons).

 

I also think the DM era is overrated, but that's something else. 

 

 

 

 
This is a discussion thread for those of you who frequent this section to weigh in with your thoughts if the policy should remain in place. Though, with that being said, I do have to lay out ground rules. 
 

1. Keep all discussion to the DIVINE and Divine-Beast policy only.
 
2. You must elaborate on your stance on the policy (whether you support it or not). 
 
No word requirement, but don't short-post "yes", "no" and then leave.
 
I will not be providing a poll; if you have an opinion, write it out. It's difficult for members (and for me) to see how you really feel if you just vote yes/no and not explain. 
 
3. Do not post in this thread if you have no interest in this section and/or the policy being discussed. 
 
If you're just going to come in here to shitpost, don't, because you WILL be penalized for it.
 
4. Be respectful to users in this thread and their suggestions. 

 
I don't have a definite timeline for when I'll lock this thread, but moreso on how many of you post and give me something to work off of.

[I Hate Snatch Steal]

"If the no DIVNE policy is under review, I want it to be noted that I fervently oppose it. The logic that the Norse gods being changed to other attributes and types justifying it is absurd. Its like saying that there can be no Machine-Type resonators because clock resonator got its type changed to Fiend or justifying the no DIVINE clause based on any other change from the anime to the TCG. The fact that some people argue that it encourages throwing those types and attributes around is also flawed. We have other sections we can move those cards to as needed. More importantly, cards in this section should be judged on merit and not some notion of how many DIVINE cards currently exist."

 

That is what I said in my obelisk the tormentor retrain thread.

 

Now that we have a draft of new rules to look at I will add my comments to each one:

 

Section 1: I'm opposed to this rule as its currently written. I completely agree with the idea that DIVINE shouldn't be thrown around and slapped onto any card. However some fantasy words from other media have their own deity or deities that I feel would fit this mold just fine. For example, The fictional word from this book series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Immortals_(series)has a pantheon that is very similar in function to the pantheons in greek and roman mythology. However naturally the gods and goddesses are different. Thus I feel that the this section could be edited to say " 1. Must be based on a deity from an actual religion / cultural pantheon / other media, and provide a link to information on them. If you can provide information to back up your choice, it shouldn't matter weather the character originated in the bible or your favorite manga or somewhere else since when it comes down to it, what's the difference? I'd also be ok with made up gods, as long as people provide sufficient backstory for them. Thus if user A has a really cool fantasy world they've made up, why should their god character be any less valid then a more well known work of fiction or more well known religion?

 

edit: Even if only gods from other well known media get approval and OC ones don't, its still an improvement over the current draft

 

Section 2:

No complaints. I believe that this is already covered in advanced card's rules for other cards but restating it can't hurt.

 

Section 3:

This seems arbitrary and should be removed. I think it would be better to rely on section 2 and to judge the final result of the card. What if for example you wanted to avoid interactions with http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/A_Wild_Monster_Appears! by raising the level by 1 or http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Mound_of_the_Bound_Creator by lowering the level. I think this should be a guideline not a rule.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

To be fair, they aren't set in stone yet (and really, only the first two are definitive; thought I wrote the 3rd one to be a suggestion, but suppose I removed it as an afterthought).

 

1. Can be edited to address deities in other established media that are seen on the level of existing gods. We do have cases like Thor who is literally themed on the Norse god and the deities in Black Panther / Wakanda who also derive from their respective counterparts. 

 

(To be honest, Marvel does have a lot of characters who literally derive themselves from gods, so...they would probably be okay, assuming you design them properly and can get enough info on them to justify them as gods. Some of them lacked info though on Wikipedia or had very little to explain for those unfamiliar with the series.)

 

For fictitious ones that members make up on their own, I think they should go to Casual Cards due to lack of information (and although this is probably a rare case, their deity can be legitimately OP'd in their universe). However, the parenthesized part is more of a Fanfic thing and we can address that when we get there.

 

2. It's repetitive, but have to make sure members understand that any new God cards that get created in here (if/only if the policy is removed) will be required to be at competitive level (plus follow the above); else I move them to Casual/Free. 

 

3. Level 10 is where all of the monsters that were given DIVINE status are (originals, Wickeds, Sacred Beast, Aesir). Level 12 does exist for Horakthy and Armityle, though those two are combined forms of their respective trinities. 

 

You can go over it though, and you'd still get Mound protection (I originally though Mound was strictly for Level 10 only; I re-read it and says "10 and over".)

 

I also considered a suggestion of Level 8 for minor deities (since the 10s are from the major gods in their respective pantheons [well, Obelisk's origin is somewhat iffy but probably is themed on a major one]), though dropped the idea because of the earlier Mound thing. You can still search them via Mound after it blows up, but you won't get the protection/burn effects.

 

(You would still get A Wild Monster Appears targeting, but...you wouldn't be able to summon them off this unless you literally made them (semi) Nomis in the first place. Only Ra would be SSable off it because it had that whole gimmick stripped for whatever reason.

 

Again, #3 was technically a suggestion and isn't hard set in stone. I would say no lower than Level 8 though, so them being DIVINE actually means something. 

 

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Would need to look over Synchro / Xyz gods (similar to the Aesirs), but you will have to make sure they require more than 2 monsters to bring out and not be super spammable. 

[Thomas★Zero]

Would it be legal in advanced cards if the Divine/Divine beast were used as a form of support that acts as a evolution/variant of the Egyptian god cards which are the only known Divine/Divine Beast in the game where we had Sphere Mode for Ra as a variant.

 

An example of this would be making a variant of Obelisk the Tormentor that could tribute Monsters to gain ATK instead of destroying cards based on how in the anime its ATK become infinite by tributing Monsters at various times.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

In that instance, it would be okay to make another form that incorporates Obelisk's stat boosting as opposed to its destruction thing. Then again, the Yugioh R manga also had Obelisk the Progenitor (which apparently made it on the same class as Ra), but that was due to Divine Evolution. 

 

(Then again, Slifer doesn't have the same luxury of multiple effects as Ra and Obelisk do; well, in the sense of being more proactive given its known anime effects. Ra has multiple forms because its anime incarnation had too many effects to be released [and for thematic reasons]. Then again, you could also make another form that actually gains the stats of its Tributes [which, for hell knows why, Konami didn't bother to give the original one upon release (they kept the point-to-point one))

 

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Though, Snatch's "retrains" are technically being allowed at the moment because of the gray area in this, but they're more of the erratas which are already permitted (least what I looked at anyway).

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IDK, this is probably one of the reasons why this wasn't brought up until now; given the uncertainties of what would be acceptable as a DIVINE card in here and how to go about it without destroying existing flavor. 

 

Then again, if DIVINE monsters are allowed in here; then the rules for Casual will need altering too. 

[Dova]

I agree that DIVINE Gods should be allowed in Advanced as long as they're based on actual Gods/mythos. However, I also agree with Sakura that custom Gods should be placed in Casual; allowing anyone to post their own Gods will blur the line so much that in the end you can't stop someone slapping on it willy nilly to an entire archetype of Gods in their own lore. However, then we have the line blurring between fictitious worlds and custom worlds, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

Personally, I don't even want to touch the Typing/Attribute. But I think people should be allowed to experiment with them, if they so choose.

 

Retrains should be allowed. They're still based on their original cards/lore, and should be reviewed in the same way, however. 

[VCR_CAT]

I disagree that either type or the attribute should be barred from advanced. Also, to clarify, there are 5 DIVINE/Divine Beast monsters (Sphere Mode and Phoenix Mode included).

 

But overall, I see no real reason that this standard should be there. I also disagree that Divine Beast monsters HAVE to be based off or real-world deities, because again, why are we giving this type/attribute such a revered and specific treatment?

 

Even besides aesthetic reasons, designing for the D/Db means that a creator gets to design for a pool of cards that doesn't have other support; a blank slate. In the case of Advanced, this frees up a lot of oversight for potential interactions. It's the closest any advanced designer gets to near-freedom in their card design, with their only concern being the strength of the cards themselves and not how it might combine with other themes or support.

 

I see no reason that any restrictions need to be held on the type/attribute and the entire rule feels very arbitrary, and I'm going to go many steps further and say that they shouldn't have to be level 10 or based off of real world deities. Let people flex their creativity.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

I'm treating Sphere/Phoenix modes as the same god for the purpose of this thread (but yes, I am aware that they are distinct cards from the original one).

 

Also I do need to note that Casual Cards already permits DIVINE and Divine-Beast monsters without any such restrictions (only ones are suggestions to keep the Type/Attribute and put SOME thought into what you're making a DIVINE monster out of.)

 

 

Point of the restriction is seeing that members actually do their research instead of pulling some random deity out of thin air and/or putting DIVINE on cards that really shouldn't. I did say that I would allow for divine entities from outside media to be allowed Divine-Beast / DIVINE, since a lot of them derive from existing stuff (least for comics). You will have to put in considerable thought and design on them; make sure you do it justice and obviously, don't make it busted.

 

(Not sure how long we've had this policy; likely originated during Black/Koko's first run of the area or during Icy's modship of the place several years back. It's just something that was kept around while figuring out how to remodel the section.)

 

 

Like I said in my last post, the Level restriction was intended to be a suggestion [not a definitive rule] and came around because of partial misunderstanding. You can deviate from Level 10, though it isn't advised too much due to Mound's protection and stuff extending only to 10+. Though, you designing new cards for them can address this problem and permit non-Level 10s to do things.

 

 

I want to give you as much free reign into designing for DIVINE monsters as possible, but at the same time, it can't get to the point where the Type/Attribute don't mean anything important as they get slapped onto EVERYTHING.

 

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I'll respond to other comments in this thread when I return from work, but thank you to those who posted an opinion in here. So far, you guys are in favor of dropping / loosening the bar. 

[VCR_CAT]

Also I do need to note that Casual Cards already permits DIVINE and Divine-Beast monsters without any such restrictions (only ones are suggestions to keep the Type/Attribute and put SOME thought into what you're making a DIVINE monster out of.)

 

But the intention is to permit it for Advanced, where the mechanical designs of the cards are held to a greater standard.

 

 

Point of the restriction is seeing that members actually do their research instead of pulling some random deity out of thin air and/or putting DIVINE on cards that really shouldn't. I did say that I would allow for divine entities from outside media to be allowed Divine-Beast / DIVINE, since a lot of them derive from existing stuff (least for comics). You will have to put in considerable thought and design on them; make sure you do it justice and obviously, don't make it busted.

 

(Not sure how long we've had this policy; likely originated during Black/Koko's first run of the area or during Icy's modship of the place several years back. It's just something that was kept around while figuring out how to remodel the section.)

 

What I'm reading here is that it's not permitted because you want to hold that type/attribute to an arbitrarily higher standard? There's no reason it needs to be so strict and demanding, and people can give reason for their cards to share that type/attribute without having it to check off a list of meaningless expectations. A lot of this sounds like "But what if they make BAD cards?!"

 

People will do a poor job designing the theme and flavor of their cards, and this happens. Having a hard rule set in Advanced for this just makes no sense to me, but is also actively taking away from the section. Now it's required for these certain cards to be good enough in just flavor or else the thread is in threat of being moved to casual or being taken down?

 

This shouldn't be a rule, and it actively undermines the workshop/feedback aspect of CC.

 

 

I want to give you as much free reign into designing for DIVINE monsters as possible, but at the same time, it can't get to the point where the Type/Attribute don't mean anything important as they get slapped onto EVERYTHING.

 

Then it's a double standard. If DIVINE and Divine Beast are all you care about with typing/attribute, then Typing/Attribute already don't mean anything because nothing else is being held to the same standard. You're elevating one aspect of the game onto a pedestal for actually no reason.

 

If a set is designed well, then they use the type and attribute with good reason both mechanically and thematically. Having "good design" be a rule is ridiculous. CC, even Advanced, should be a place where people should be free to post their designs, and if the design isn't good or falls short in some way, then they can receive feedback and both polish and improve the design.

 

Seriously, just drop the rule. It's old and pretty arbitrary, and people should have the freedom to design for either of these pools.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

It's a carryover from the old days and yes, there were discussions about it in the past both for and against alteration of the policy in Advanced; even among past CC mods (er, I only found one conversation and that was generally approval, provided there's some basis to it).

 

The discussions stalled because it wasn't a pressing matter in light of other things and not many people were pushing for the removal. 

 

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1. Point is, if you're going to design DIVINE monsters in this section, you'll have to put in more effort than you would in the other two areas. Obviously, I do not expect you to do intensive research on other gods as if you are writing an essay for some history course, but justify that they exist (or provide evidence).

 

If you can justify making them DIVINE monsters (as opposed to the regular Types/Attributes), and the cards aren't outright busted for what they do, they can remain in here. (There's also the design notes, which should cover the former.)

 

Some of the restrictions do come from what I've seen in the past (not necessarily on YCM itself) in terms of people designing new God cards. A few of them do have purpose for being this, whereas others seem to be there for the sake of it (random cards that are DIVINE). 

 

2. As for the DIVINE / Divine-Beast thing, I really do not see a reason for why you should give a monster with a regular Type the DIVINE attribute or Divine-Beast a regular Attribute.

 

It is possible to experiment with them, yes, but is there a pressing reason to deviate from it?

 

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I can remove the policy (as yes, it's legitimately old and by now Konami isn't going to give it new support in light of other things).

 

However, I do have to differentiate this section's version from Casual Cards (and fix that one accordingly based on changes here). Suppose the only "restrictions" in here that will differentiate between the two will be that: 

 

(1) You need a purpose for your stuff to be DIVINE / Divine-Beast and explain it with the proper notes.

(2) Should be designed for Advanced standards (or the meta), but this applies to everything posted in this section.

[宇佐見 蓮子@C94]

not rly

for all intents and purposes DIVINE and Divine-beast are the same as any other type in the game with the creation of Mound turning them into a proper type/attribute combination with direct support behind them

 

asking for people to justify making cards in that combination with lore/flavor purposes is completely asinine tbh like you might as well ask people to justify why their card's a Cyberse instead of a Dragon, especially in advanced when the purpose is to oh idk like actually have gameplay relevance outside of  L O R E? 

[VCR_CAT]

There is absolutely reason to use that pool of typing and attribute, and that's because it's a relatively blank slate. Besides the god cards themselves, there are no themes, no generic monsters, and no good support that would actually make any amount of relevance. It opens up a lot of freedom for design in mechanics that no other pool has to offer, and that's definitely something in the area of Advanced that would be very much worth taking advantage of. These are gameplay reasons that Casual and Free don't justify in the same way because those sections aren't intended for mechanically competent designs, and if I were to just start posting those themes demanding Advanced-level feedback, then what's even the point of sections?

 

I can justify the typing and attribute with reasons in both gameplay and lore, and I can do so without doing the level of research or connection to real mythology that you think I should be doing

 

There shouldn't be those restrictions, and having this as a reason to "differentiate the sections" is pointless. The sections should be differentiated by the level of the design, whether it's meant to be applied to the game in a competitive and mechanical sense or whether it's just for kicks or whatever.

 

Just let us design the cards, and remove these arbitrary restrictions. We're not designing cards as if they would be released by Konami in the real game, we don't need this arbitrary differentiation of this one type and attribute.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Just for reference, you do have to factor in flavor somewhat within Advanced designs, however yes, it is more focused on if the thing actually works. Quite honestly, we haven't been going on flavor for a while now because trying to follow it cuts into what you can do. 

 

If you can prove the card deserves to be DIVINE by your own design, then it can stay in here. I do not want to see badly designed DIVINE cards with no forethought behind them in this section, but do we know if something will be like this without the rule being altered for Advanced? No.

 

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I'll look over the remarks in this thread and render a final decision within the next couple days. If anyone else has something they wish to say within the timeframe, do so before then. 

 

Right now, the policy will be removed.