Jump to content

Welcome to Yugioh Card Maker Forum
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

[V Jump] Collectors Pack 2018 News: Borrelguard & Iron Draw


Necrobump!

Guest, the last post on this topic is over 30 days old and a new post will be considered as necrobumping!



  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1
Dr. Jolly Glot the III

Dr. Jolly Glot the III

    Text-Perimentation~ Extraordinaire!

  • Elite Members
  • 1,277 posts
    Last Visit 31 minutes ago

Guard-and-Draw.png?resize=566%2C391&ssl=

 

CP18-JP044 Varrelguard Dragon (Borrelguard Dragon)
Link 4 DARK Dragon Link Effect Monster
ATK 3000
Links: Top, Right, Bottom, Bottom Right

Materials: 3+ Effect Monsters
(1) Cannot be destroyed by card effects.
(2) Once per turn: You can send 1 card from your Spell & Trap Zone to the GY; Special Summon 1 monster that was destroyed and sent to the GY during this turn from either player’s GY to your field, but its effects are negated.
(3) Once per turn (Quick Effect): You can target 1 monster on the field; change that monster to face-up Defense Position. Your opponent cannot activate cards or effects in response to this effect’s activation.

 

CP18-JP034 Iron Draw
Normal Spell Card

You can only activate 1 card with this card’s name per turn.
(1) If the only monsters you control are exactly 2 Machine Effect Monsters: Draw 2 cards, but you can only Special Summon monster(s) once for the rest of this turn.

 

Sauce: https://ygorganizati...m/entertheiggy/

 

gonna place Iron Draw together since its already "a set" with Borrelguard pic anyway.



#2
President Frank Underwood

President Frank Underwood

    #FU2016

  • POTUS
  • 11,419 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 07:01 PM
  • Alias:Dan

BORRELGUARD!!! AT LAST, THE TRIO IS COMPLETE!!!
Yes, whatever Borrelguard revives to have its effects negated, which really isn't too much of an issue for using it as a Link Material or for reviving Miniborrel using your opponent's Links. On the other hand, unlike the original, it allows the monster to stay instead of just destroying it. However, you do have to revive a monster that was destroyed this turn, so you could use it to revive a destroyed Rokket to get some mileage out of using it as a Link Material.

And Iron Draw is pretty good for a Machine Deck, I guess. Seems quite situational.



#3
Black

Black

    Ultimate Affluent Progeny

  • Moderators
  • 47,345 posts
    Last Visit 30 minutes ago
  • Alias:Black
  • Spouse:Melody & Birdie
Borrelguard sucks. The revival should have been quickplay. Why this is wastingCP slots is beyond me.

Iron Draw is okay, I guess. Seems like it’s not good enough.

You are an insane person and very creative.


#4
Thomas Zero

Thomas Zero

    The HERO of YCM

  • VIP

  • 6,280 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 05:27 PM
Iron Draw seems like it be a powerful card in Cydra if you can get a field of the Cydra Link Monster and Infinity set up for using this, plus it stating once for the rest of this turn is pretty much key for enabling to set up before using this.
Elemental HERO Kingdom Neos


#5
~British Soul~

~British Soul~

    ~ Moegiddo ~

  • Top Hat Regulator
  • 25,930 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 08:37 PM
  • Alias:~British Soul~
  • Spouse:Yubel

Ah yes Iron Draw, a card from that one duel in Zexal (vs 96) and not used after that. On one hand it's an interesting draw card, on the other hand it does seem situational and requires some set up to get the most mileage from it..

 

Why this is wasting a CP slot is beyond me.

Yeah, this should've been in CYHO instead of Drumgon, but then Drumgon would've been a bigger waste of a slot.


iVaujSV.png?1

 


33m8m1c.jpg

Rest of Sig

#6
goodfusion

goodfusion

    Snailoon

  • Xyz

  • 1,746 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 03:52 PM

Iron Draw is really easy to set up in a lot of Machine Decks. For example, Machina Gearframe + Machina Fortress, Gold/Silver Gadget or Tin Goldfish + another Level 4 Machine.

 

However it seems risky because if you can't get out 2 Machines it's a dead draw, and if you've already got a big field it's a dead draw. Also it can stop any big combos with the Special Summon restriction, so it's certainly not for every deck. If the restriction was "cannot Special Summon except Machines" it would be a lot stronger. At least it gives you 1 more Special Summon to allow you to go into a Gear Gigant X or something.

 

Still, I'm going to have fun testing it it. Hopefully it's good enough for roids because I'd love some more draw power.


My signature

#7
Dragulas

Dragulas

    Prince of Darkness

  • Advanced Members
  • 912 posts
    Last Visit 7 minutes ago

I really like Iron Draw's SS clause, doesnt instantly trade advantage for a completely shut down board setting 


Print this Konami

 

                                                                                                                               

 

 

                                                                       KZUGX4U.png


#8
VCR_CAT

VCR_CAT

    Video Cassette Kitteh

  • Omnic

  • 2,694 posts
    Last Visit 30 minutes ago
  • Spouse:Pizza

If I'm reading Iron Draw correctly, in that you only get 1 additional Special Summon for the rest of the turn, then my feelings towards the card went from "Hey that's not bad" to "Wow that's very bad." It means if you want to use it while still being able to set up a decent field, you have to use it later in the turn, which means you have one less card in your hand to work with. Using it early means you're either playing a Paleos-style deck or you plan on losing anyways.

 

If its requirements were a bit more flexible, in letting you control other monsters besides the 2 machine effect monsters, then I'd feel a lot better about the card. But as it is, this just... is not a good card. Even something like Qliphorts that isn't heavy on its special summon use is going "Yeah, no I'm not a fan." since that deck is already pendulum summoning 2 monsters out into Genius's markers for better value in its plays in the first place, which gives them three to work with.

 

This card would have been pretty good if it was released... four years ago. Right now? It's just... not pulling weight.


PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA

 

giphy.gif

 

u8g1mOv.jpg

 

SmUH6Uv.png


#9
goodfusion

goodfusion

    Snailoon

  • Xyz

  • 1,746 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 03:52 PM

If I'm reading Iron Draw correctly, in that you only get 1 additional Special Summon for the rest of the turn, then my feelings towards the card went from "Hey that's not bad" to "Wow that's very bad." It means if you want to use it while still being able to set up a decent field, you have to use it later in the turn, which means you have one less card in your hand to work with. Using it early means you're either playing a Paleos-style deck or you plan on losing anyways.

 

If its requirements were a bit more flexible, in letting you control other monsters besides the 2 machine effect monsters, then I'd feel a lot better about the card. But as it is, this just... is not a good card. Even something like Qliphorts that isn't heavy on its special summon use is going "Yeah, no I'm not a fan." since that deck is already pendulum summoning 2 monsters out into Genius's markers for better value in its plays in the first place, which gives them three to work with.

 

This card would have been pretty good if it was released... four years ago. Right now? It's just... not pulling weight.

 

I feel you're being a bit harsh. It seems fine in a pretty casual environment, if used in a slower deck. Something like Gadgets maybe.


My signature

#10
vla1ne

vla1ne

    The Last (A)utomata

  • Elite Members
  • 3,314 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 07:34 PM
  • Spouse:Lung Tien Lien

well in deskbots, one of the most basic plays could be: summon 03, special 02, search whatever scale you're missing, activate iron draw, pendulum however many monsters you want, and go about your merry way. so there's that much.

 

and dinomists too, from what i've seen, they could use it pretty well.


"Watch, Listen, and Think For Yourself"

nothing of interest


My friend codes are:
ThatGuy @4957-40030345 PM me and I'll add you.

#11
VCR_CAT

VCR_CAT

    Video Cassette Kitteh

  • Omnic

  • 2,694 posts
    Last Visit 30 minutes ago
  • Spouse:Pizza

well in deskbots, one of the most basic plays could be: summon 03, special 02, search whatever scale you're missing, activate iron draw, pendulum however many monsters you want, and go about your merry way. so there's that much.

 

and dinomists too, from what i've seen, they could use it pretty well.

 

Not with only one special summon it's not good with Deskbots. You're going into Needlefiber combos, which are multiple special summons to get into a final product of Saryuja for the draws, then you're still working off of that extra special summon, the pendulum summon, and the final field that all of this setup works towards.

 

The only window where you're controlling exactly 2 Machine monsters and no other monsters, as late as possible into the combo, is after you summon O-Lion with Needlefiber, but if you use Iron Draw, then you only have 1 Special Summon after that. What that means is, you get a Link Summon off of those materials, yes, but then you don't get the token from O-Lion and you can't go anywhere from there.

 

This is what I mean by this card not being very good in practice. There's no window where it can be used where you can both reap the benefits and still end on a viable field.

 

 

 

I feel you're being a bit harsh. It seems fine in a pretty casual environment, if used in a slower deck. Something like Gadgets maybe.

 

I very much disagree and I honestly feel this is a very accurate assessment. I'm a casual player, I play casual decks, even when I try to make them and play them to the best of my ability. Even among less-serious casual play, the game's just moved way past the point where ending on a field that's just Gear Gigant X and some traps is asking to lose. Casual decks these days, like Fur Hire, Vampires, F.A., etc.-- they can all play past this and sweep you into a position you're not coming back from.

 

Tossing "Well but casual" around only gets you so far, because that aspect of the game develops with the release of new cards as well. If you're considering the viability of a card in the modern game using all the cards and staying up to date, then you need to remember that there is an expiration date on every card and deck where it's just going to be bad in all aspects. That's the game, that's how a CCG works.

 

If you're wondering if what I'm saying is "So some decks and strategies are going to become unviable and bad even in regular casual play" then yes, yes that's exactly what I'm saying. New cards get released, and old stuff is surpassed. That's what happens.

 

Iron Draw is a card that throttles your turn too much, and it's not actually practical in any modern machine deck that's worth half its salt.


PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA

 

giphy.gif

 

u8g1mOv.jpg

 

SmUH6Uv.png


#12
vla1ne

vla1ne

    The Last (A)utomata

  • Elite Members
  • 3,314 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 07:34 PM
  • Spouse:Lung Tien Lien

Not with only one special summon it's not good with Deskbots. You're going into Needlefiber combos, which are multiple special summons to get into a final product of Saryuja for the draws, then you're still working off of that extra special summon, the pendulum summon, and the final field that all of this setup works towards.

 

The only window where you're controlling exactly 2 Machine monsters and no other monsters, as late as possible into the combo, is after you summon O-Lion with Needlefiber, but if you use Iron Draw, then you only have 1 Special Summon after that. What that means is, you get a Link Summon off of those materials, yes, but then you don't get the token from O-Lion and you can't go anywhere from there.

 

This is what I mean by this card not being very good in practice. There's no window where it can be used where you can both reap the benefits and still end on a viable field.

 

actually, deskbots, even without going into the ED, can hit insanely hard. off of the combo i said, without iron draw, and without ever touching my extra deck, i've put out well over 10K damage. that's more than enough damage to end a game. I can make a full list of the things you can do with this card if you'd like to give me a day or so to write it out.

 

i've played deskbots for a long time, there's far more to the deck than needlefiber, and the combo i mentioned is meant to go for the kill. trust me, that draw 2 is more than enough to give deskbots room to kill.


"Watch, Listen, and Think For Yourself"

nothing of interest


My friend codes are:
ThatGuy @4957-40030345 PM me and I'll add you.

#13
VCR_CAT

VCR_CAT

    Video Cassette Kitteh

  • Omnic

  • 2,694 posts
    Last Visit 30 minutes ago
  • Spouse:Pizza

actually, deskbots, even without going into the ED, can hit insanely hard. off of the combo i said, without iron draw, and without ever touching my extra deck, i've put out well over 10K damage. that's more than enough damage to end a game. I can make a full list of the things you can do with this card if you'd like to give me a day or so to write it out.

 

i've played deskbots for a long time, there's far more to the deck than needlefiber, and the combo i mentioned is meant to go for the kill. trust me, that draw 2 is more than enough to give deskbots room to kill.

 

Deskbots are capable of much more beyond "but lots of damage!" and can be a capable, threatening deck if the traditional "Deskbot Mindset" is cast aside.

 

The thing is, there isn't a "big list of things you can do with this card" because there isn't anything that this card does to enable combos that other cards cannot. It's a draw 2, it's not bringing any specific pieces to the board. And if you're playing Deskbots and opt for a field of just normal machine monsters for a simple draw 2 instead of your opening turn being, say, Saryuja, Naturia Beast, and Framelord Zeta, then I would say you're selling the deck short for a cheap +1.

 

Realize that a simple +1 at the cost of a more extensive turn is a pretty cheap trade when potential value is considered. Iron Draw puts a cap on your turn, but something like Deskbots can bring much more value to itself by going further than that.


PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA

 

giphy.gif

 

u8g1mOv.jpg

 

SmUH6Uv.png


#14
(temmie)

(temmie)

    detemmienation

  • Monsters

  • 7,000 posts
    Last Visit 17 minutes ago
  • Alias:(parenthesis)
  • Spouse:cinnamon

actually, deskbots, even without going into the ED, can hit insanely hard. off of the combo i said, without iron draw, and without ever touching my extra deck, i've put out well over 10K damage. that's more than enough damage to end a game. I can make a full list of the things you can do with this card if you'd like to give me a day or so to write it out.

i've played deskbots for a long time, there's far more to the deck than needlefiber, and the combo i mentioned is meant to go for the kill. trust me, that draw 2 is more than enough to give deskbots room to kill.

if you can put all that damage on the board without iron draw, then why add it into the equation? You say yourself it isn't needed for the play you brought up, so all it does is take away from the deck's ability to do plays beyond "look my monsters have lots of ATK".

Deskbots were plenty good enough at making big numbers without this, and all this does is make those numbers bigger. You don't need more than 10,000 damage on board, and are far better off investing in a presence that does something outside the battle phase.

You say he is underestimating what the archetype can do, and yet you are the one with tunnel vision.

go_to_tem_shop__by_xxthecandywolfxx-d9wk


#15
vla1ne

vla1ne

    The Last (A)utomata

  • Elite Members
  • 3,314 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 07:34 PM
  • Spouse:Lung Tien Lien

Deskbots are capable of much more beyond "but lots of damage!" and can be a capable, threatening deck if the traditional "Deskbot Mindset" is cast aside.

 

The thing is, there isn't a "big list of things you can do with this card" because there isn't anything that this card does to enable combos that other cards cannot. It's a draw 2, it's not bringing any specific pieces to the board. And if you're playing Deskbots and opt for a field of just normal machine monsters for a simple draw 2 instead of your opening turn being, say, Saryuja, Naturia Beast, and Framelord Zeta, then I would say you're selling the deck short for a cheap +1.

 

Realize that a simple +1 at the cost of a more extensive turn is a pretty cheap trade when potential value is considered. Iron Draw puts a cap on your turn, but something like Deskbots can bring much more value to itself by going further than that.

 

i already said it's capable of building a killing field. i've built traditional and ED combo deskbots. i'm not saying this is good for combo variants (it could be, in fact i'll say that it is, so long as it's for machine oriented ED builds), i'm saying this is good for traditional variants, because it grants you a deeper draw, which deskbots can easily use to go for more consistent OTKs.

 

this card only removes the option to build ED heavy boards, and if your goal is (non machine) ED setups, then of course you aren't using this. on the other hand, you can still use this on a board of Qliphort genius and Cydra infinity, and this card would fit right in as a draw 2, to give you extra resources to sit on. all the while leaving you 1 more SS to add a final piece to the board, like an 04 or the 05/06 ones.

 

iron draw only works with machines, as such, the argument that you can no longer saryuja, beast, ect, is one that you may as well consider to be already acknowledged. needlefiber doesn't exist yet in america, so it's irrelevant till it hits for the purposes of this discussion (though i acknowledge it's value) the pure machine build/ machine oriented plays are what i was focusing on with my comment, telling me i can make extensions outside of the machine variant, is to ignore the card that's being discussed. of course this doesn't work for the playstyle of the build you're thinking of, because the build you're thinking of is not the one that this is meant to assist. this is something for the pure and the machine related variants. the traditional builds, are the only ones that this card applies to, so thinking of using it with that mindset is 100% valid.

 

 

if you can put all that damage on the board without iron draw, then why add it into the equation? You say yourself it isn't needed for the play you brought up, so all it does is take away from the deck's ability to do plays beyond "look my monsters have lots of ATK".

Deskbots were plenty good enough at making big numbers without this, and all this does is make those numbers bigger. You don't need more than 10,000 damage on board, and are far better off investing in a presence that does something outside the battle phase.

You say he is underestimating what the archetype can do, and yet you are the one with tunnel vision.

because digging deeper into the deck gives you more ways of building and more cards to work with. yes, i can end games with 10K+ damage, but it isn't an every game thing. the numbers would easily become far more consistent using iron draw. the pendulum summoning mechanic means that you only need 1 SS to make full use of a hand of deskbots. like i said before, this card is for the deck that  either runs only machines, or focuses on the kill then and there. if you are running ED combo deskbots (or rely more heavily on ED combos than main deck combos in your build), then you do not need this, but this makes pure, or machine oriented (aka qliphort genius/infinity) deskbots more consistent, and makes their recovery simpler.

 

you're right, they can build big boards, and with links being a thing, a 10K monster is always a potent threat, but this is for the extra push. traditional deskbots don't always have that extra bot, or the field spell in hand, when you want to make that push, this can help change that, it's the extra draw gamble. winning that gamble can easily give you the game, losing the gamble still puts you 2 cards deeper into your deck. i agree that investing in something that does things outside the BP is a smart move, but there are machines that do as much, that can work with iron draw.

 

i don't recall saying he's underestimating anything. nor did i say he was wrong about his combo being good. but his combos and this card are two different things. they cater to completely different playstyles, while i'm discussing this card's applications, he's discussing what other cards can do for deskbots. neither of which is wrong. this card lends assistance to a different method than his chosen one, and is enough of a buff to said method to be worth adding in. so again, there are more than enough ED machines to make this worth using in deskbots, and more than enough ways to play around this. this isn't something like duality, where you have to stop in your tracks for the turn.


"Watch, Listen, and Think For Yourself"

nothing of interest


My friend codes are:
ThatGuy @4957-40030345 PM me and I'll add you.

#16
VCR_CAT

VCR_CAT

    Video Cassette Kitteh

  • Omnic

  • 2,694 posts
    Last Visit 30 minutes ago
  • Spouse:Pizza

i already said it's capable of building a killing field. i've built traditional and ED combo deskbots. i'm not saying this is good for combo variants (it could be, in fact i'll say that it is, so long as it's for machine oriented ED builds), i'm saying this is good for traditional variants, because it grants you a deeper draw, which deskbots can easily use to go for more consistent OTKs.

 

this card only removes the option to build ED heavy boards, and if your goal is (non machine) ED setups, then of course you aren't using this. on the other hand, you can still use this on a board of Qliphort genius and Cydra infinity, and this card would fit right in as a draw 2, to give you extra resources to sit on. all the while leaving you 1 more SS to add a final piece to the board, like an 04 or the 05/06 ones.

 

iron draw only works with machines, as such, the argument that you can no longer saryuja, beast, ect, is one that you may as well consider to be already acknowledged. needlefiber doesn't exist yet in america, so it's irrelevant till it hits for the purposes of this discussion (though i acknowledge it's value) the pure machine build/ machine oriented plays are what i was focusing on with my comment, telling me i can make extensions outside of the machine variant, is to ignore the card that's being discussed. of course this doesn't work for the playstyle of the build you're thinking of, because the build you're thinking of is not the one that this is meant to assist. this is something for the pure and the machine related variants. the traditional builds, are the only ones that this card applies to, so thinking of using it with that mindset is 100% valid.

 

First off, "Traditional Deskbots" is another way of saying "Bad Deskbots". You're setting aside more fruitful and stronger fields with a far more versatile deck in favor of putting on the blinders for a simple battle-based OTK.

 

Second off, it's not good for that either.

 

I feel like you don't understand what Iron Draw does. It sounds like you think it just limits it to Machine summons for the rest of the turn or something, so let's go over what it does in more layman's terms:

 

If the only monsters you control are exactly 2 machine effects monsters, draw 2 cards, then for the rest of the turn you only get one more Special Summon (though that single Special Summon can be multiple monsters).

 

Let's consider that basic combo you keep touting as good: you summon 003, bring out 002 and get a search. Now if you were wanting to activate Iron Draw, this is when you do it as you're most likely to get it off. But if you wanted to go further, you would use those two monsters for Genius, then use Guitaars to bring out Miccs. Then you can use it now, get a draw 2, then...

 

Then what?

 

You have one more special summon, and assuming this play all goes well, you have one more normal summon and one more special summon. You CAN go into 003 again and bring out another 002, then you have 4 monsters with some decent stats, but that's it. That's all your field is, and that field is weak and asking to be destroyed.

 

Alternatively, you can Pendulum Summon monsters, but again all you're doing is bringing out bodies with stats. Going first, this is an unacceptable field that won't accomplish anything in stopping your opponent, and going second you'd have to be going against a fairly incompetent deck for that to actually work to your benefit.

 

My argument that you can't use this with Saryuja or Beast isn't because "But it works on machines", it's because after your limited window of using this card you do not have enough Special Summons to actually be able to go into one of those monsters.

 

You say this isn't "like duality", but it really is, because honestly I don't think you know how this card works. Leaving you with only one Special Summon and two monsters on the field leaves you with nothing. It's a terrible field, and I doubt you've actually mapped out when this can be used where it's not going to be just a dead card in the hand and actually benefits you to some degree.

 

It doesn't matter what variant you're using, Iron Draw is a bad card for Deskbots, and arguing to me that you can potentially use it in an inferior variant doesn't suddenly make the card good (even though it's bad for even that).

 

 

 

 

By the way: I don't know why the heck you talk about "Yeah but TCG don't have Needlefiber" as if we're getting this card before it. If you're going to talk about a TCG-only format as if it's making a point in this regard, at the very least consider what cards are going to be out by the time we get the card in question.


PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA

 

giphy.gif

 

u8g1mOv.jpg

 

SmUH6Uv.png


#17
vla1ne

vla1ne

    The Last (A)utomata

  • Elite Members
  • 3,314 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 07:34 PM
  • Spouse:Lung Tien Lien

First off, "Traditional Deskbots" is another way of saying "Bad Deskbots". You're setting aside more fruitful and stronger fields with a far more versatile deck in favor of putting on the blinders for a simple battle-based OTK.

 

Second off, it's not good for that either.

 

I feel like you don't understand what Iron Draw does. It sounds like you think it just limits it to Machine summons for the rest of the turn or something, so let's go over what it does in more layman's terms:

 

If the only monsters you control are exactly 2 machine effects monsters, draw 2 cards, then for the rest of the turn you only get one more Special Summon (though that single Special Summon can be multiple monsters).

 

Let's consider that basic combo you keep touting as good: you summon 003, bring out 002 and get a search. Now if you were wanting to activate Iron Draw, this is when you do it as you're most likely to get it off. But if you wanted to go further, you would use those two monsters for Genius, then use Guitaars to bring out Miccs. Then you can use it now, get a draw 2, then...

 

Then what?

 

You have one more special summon, and assuming this play all goes well, you have one more normal summon and one more special summon. You CAN go into 003 again and bring out another 002, then you have 4 monsters with some decent stats, but that's it. That's all your field is, and that field is weak and asking to be destroyed.

 

Alternatively, you can Pendulum Summon monsters, but again all you're doing is bringing out bodies with stats. Going first, this is an unacceptable field that won't accomplish anything in stopping your opponent, and going second you'd have to be going against a fairly incompetent deck for that to actually work to your benefit.

 

My argument that you can't use this with Saryuja or Beast isn't because "But it works on machines", it's because after your limited window of using this card you do not have enough Special Summons to actually be able to go into one of those monsters.

 

You say this isn't "like duality", but it really is, because honestly I don't think you know how this card works. Leaving you with only one Special Summon and two monsters on the field leaves you with nothing. It's a terrible field, and I doubt you've actually mapped out when this can be used where it's not going to be just a dead card in the hand and actually benefits you to some degree.

 

It doesn't matter what variant you're using, Iron Draw is a bad card for Deskbots, and arguing to me that you can potentially use it in an inferior variant doesn't suddenly make the card good (even though it's bad for even that).

 

 

just OTK's, yet i mention infinity and genius in the same comment. you've misunderstood me again.

 

"I feel like you don't understand what Iron Draw does. It sounds like you think it just limits it to Machine summons for the rest of the turn or something,"

 

tell me, can you activate machine draw with any non machines on the board? no. the deck in question is deskbots right? yes. deskbot pendulums restrict you to deskbot pendulum summons correct? yes. you only get one summon after using machine draw correct? yes. now under that context, what non machine monster based board are you imagining me using this with? If your board is not machine based, the card is dead as doornails, which is why i restricted my examples to machine type ED monsters. because non machines prevent it from triggering, and summoning any non machine type ED monster after using it (at least on that same turn) is highly unlikely. don't misinterpret practical examples as ignorance of card text. it does not limit you to machines only, but summoning anything but machines greatly reduces the opportunities to use it, as non machines prevent you from accessing it.

 

 

 

minor example time:

 

Normal 03, special 02. search 06, machine dupe 02, search 01 or 03 depending on the board you face, or another scale if needed, (if you need no scales, then just get 01 and 03), turn the 02's into gaia saber, activate 06 and any other scale (preferably the 08, save 05 if you have it),  branch off here depending on what you have:

 

1)wavering eyes if you have it to search another scale, use 06 to get back 03 or 02 (02 if you want search stability, 03 if you want to end it this turn) activate scales, activate iron draw, draw 2, if you drew bots, you're golden, if not, it's likely another searcher or the field spell, pendulum 2-4 monsters, beat face for game via one of the 03 boosting your 01 by 2k to 4.5K (if not 7.5K) and a field of  gaia saber, 03x2, whichever deskbot you summon from the ED, and the 01. that's a game field, and defense is almost irrelevant due to having put at least 06 or 08 into the ED while having three 02 in grave (in other words, either a 2k double swing with two 03's backing it, or switching a defensive monster to attack position with a 01 staring it down and two 03's backing that). yes, it's basic brutality, but it still has enough damage on board, and versatility from the ED, to end the game turn 2, and Battle protection is rare enough for that to actually matter. machine draw is the card right before the last burst of power is about to hit the field.

 

2)activate iron draw, draw 2, this is the hand without wavering, so the cards you searched would be 03 and 01 pendulum all of the above two you picked, and the same scenario as above presents itself, with about 2k less damage overall. still enough potential damage to break a field of strong monsters, and you can swap out the 01 you search for either the 08 or 09 depending on the situation.

 

 

next scenario, assuming you have an 05 in hand as well, normal 02, dupe, seach one 05 and any other scale, turn 02 into genius, activate any scales but the 05's, pendulum two  05,  search with genius, pop two S/T if you can, (if either scale is 06, hit that one to recoup an 02) do the infinity thing, machine draw for two, set something and either swing or pass.

 

I can make more scenarios up for you if you want. iron draw isn't a new star to the deck, it's something to add in and test out. there's even more wierd OTK things you can do with needlefiber and the new cyber dragon should you choose to splash those in, but this has already been long enough, and those aren't out in america, so i'm excluding them for now

 

 

 

i'm not advertising this as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it annoys me to see things get tossed aside without diving deeper into how you can play around them down the line. not every card is a sleeper hit. but iron draw, as a draw two, is arguably prime material for such a case if ever there was any. exploring what you can do with it is far more productive than just saying "it can't work here" and instantly trashing it.

 

deskbots are versatile enough that the pure build can pull this off. i've been playing them since they came out, i've built and rebuild the deck multiple ways. grind game deskbots can put out amazing damage suddenly, and can build very quickly. iron draw is not that hard to find uses for in the deck. and for the love of all that's holy, stop misinterpreting my words.


"Watch, Listen, and Think For Yourself"

nothing of interest


My friend codes are:
ThatGuy @4957-40030345 PM me and I'll add you.

#18
VCR_CAT

VCR_CAT

    Video Cassette Kitteh

  • Omnic

  • 2,694 posts
    Last Visit 30 minutes ago
  • Spouse:Pizza

just OTK's, yet i mention infinity and genius in the same comment. you've misunderstood me again.

 

"I feel like you don't understand what Iron Draw does. It sounds like you think it just limits it to Machine summons for the rest of the turn or something,"

 

tell me, can you activate machine draw with any non machines on the board? no. the deck in question is deskbots right? yes. deskbot pendulums restrict you to deskbot pendulum summons correct? yes. you only get one summon after using machine draw correct? yes. now under that context, what non machine monster based board are you imagining me using this with? If your board is not machine based, the card is dead as doornails, which is why i restricted my examples to machine type ED monsters. because non machines prevent it from triggering, and summoning any non machine type ED monster after using it (at least on that same turn) is highly unlikely. don't misinterpret practical examples as ignorance of card text. it does not limit you to machines only, but summoning anything but machines greatly reduces the opportunities to use it, as non machines prevent you from accessing it.

 

too much text

 

next scenario, assuming you have an 05 in hand as well, normal 02, dupe, seach one 05 and any other scale, turn 02 into genius, activate any scales but the 05's, pendulum two  05,  search with genius, pop two S/T if you can, (if either scale is 06, hit that one to recoup an 02) do the infinity thing, machine draw for two, set something and either swing or pass.

 

I can make more scenarios up for you if you want. iron draw isn't a new star to the deck, it's something to add in and test out. there's even more wierd OTK things you can do with needlefiber and the new cyber dragon should you choose to splash those in, but this has already been long enough, and those aren't out in america, so i'm excluding them for now

 

 

 

i'm not advertising this as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it annoys me to see things get tossed aside without diving deeper into how you can play around them down the line. not every card is a sleeper hit. but iron draw, as a draw two, is arguably prime material for such a case if ever there was any. exploring what you can do with it is far more productive than just saying "it can't work here" and instantly trashing it.

 

deskbots are versatile enough that the pure build can pull this off. i've been playing them since they came out, i've built and rebuild the deck multiple ways. grind game deskbots can put out amazing damage suddenly, and can build very quickly. iron draw is not that hard to find uses for in the deck. and for the love of all that's holy, stop misinterpreting my words.

 

Gonna be honest, that's not a good combo. Just raw damage isn't enough these days, and any deck worth its salt actually doesn't care about the monsters you're outputting. If your deck's winning condition is "Yeah, so if your opponent has just normal monsters in attack position, or if their effect monsters might as well be normal monsters, and they don't have anything else that goes for them" then... what's going on?

 

What makes Iron Draw bad in this regard is that's the best you can do. The problem isn't just that there's a cap on your field, the problem is that the ceiling it puts on your output is unacceptably low. Anything the deck can do without using it, and without clogging itself with cards like Machine Dupe for that matter, result in far more versatile fields with much greater value. If you want a cheap +1, you're going for Saryuja because that at least lets you do things.

 

Yes, I am dismissing this card, because outside of a deck that plays like Qliphorts it isn't good, at all. As far as competent machine decks go, neither ABC's nor Deskbots actually like this because, if they're being built and played well, they will be outputting far better fields without this card to hold them back. Yes, I'm dismissing this card because it's pretty bad, this isn't 2014 where you can just leave a field with a bunch of bodies that don't do anything to your opponent and call it a day.

 

 

deskbots are versatile enough that the pure build can pull this off. i've been playing them since they came out, i've built and rebuild the deck multiple ways. grind game deskbots can put out amazing damage suddenly, and can build very quickly. iron draw is not that hard to find uses for in the deck. and for the love of all that's holy, stop misinterpreting my words.

 

Congratulations you like the deck, but I see you still run Machine Dupe and even Wavering Eyes.


PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA

 

giphy.gif

 

u8g1mOv.jpg

 

SmUH6Uv.png


#19
vla1ne

vla1ne

    The Last (A)utomata

  • Elite Members
  • 3,314 posts
    Last Visit Yesterday, 07:34 PM
  • Spouse:Lung Tien Lien

Gonna be honest, that's not a good combo. Just raw damage isn't enough these days, and any deck worth its salt actually doesn't care about the monsters you're outputting. If your deck's winning condition is "Yeah, so if your opponent has just normal monsters in attack position, or if their effect monsters might as well be normal monsters, and they don't have anything else that goes for them" then... what's going on?

 

What makes Iron Draw bad in this regard is that's the best you can do. The problem isn't just that there's a cap on your field, the problem is that the ceiling it puts on your output is unacceptably low. Anything the deck can do without using it, and without clogging itself with cards like Machine Dupe for that matter, result in far more versatile fields with much greater value. If you want a cheap +1, you're going for Saryuja because that at least lets you do things.

 

Yes, I am dismissing this card, because outside of a deck that plays like Qliphorts it isn't good, at all. As far as competent machine decks go, neither ABC's nor Deskbots actually like this because, if they're being built and played well, they will be outputting far better fields without this card to hold them back. Yes, I'm dismissing this card because it's pretty bad, this isn't 2014 where you can just leave a field with a bunch of bodies that don't do anything to your opponent and call it a day.

 

 

 

Congratulations you like the deck, but I see you still run Machine Dupe and even Wavering Eyes.

when killing a monster is game in one shot, i'd argue the raw damage combined with things like called by the grave and kaijus make that worth more than enough. jizukiru sacs monsters and can be searched if you drop genius, each pendulum summon brings heavy damage to the board, wavering breaks the scales against magicians, which can help you avoid trouble down the line, machine dupe gives you a free 1000-1500 pints of damage, (if you don't just link summon with them) and combined with other prominent cards, like 03 and 08, can also lead to game ending damage. not to mention you can still drop electrumite in pendulum variants, giving it even more setup tricks outside the norm.

 

 

standard deskbot setups, are my preferred build, and they output disruption and game level damage consistently enough to actually contend with decks like pendulums, dinosaurs, and mekk-invoked. the main decks currently in the meta that i have serious difficulty against are true draco and trickstars. (trickstars because they just throw my hand away, and dropping honest fucks with eveything but the one copy of 09 that i run, who for whatever reason, usually gets hit by reincarnation) keep in mind, that irion draw does not dictate the ED, so naturia beast, saryuja, electrumite, barkion, omega, zeta, ect, are all still available even if you run iron draw. so long as you aren't attempting to go into them the same turn you use it


"Watch, Listen, and Think For Yourself"

nothing of interest


My friend codes are:
ThatGuy @4957-40030345 PM me and I'll add you.

#20
VCR_CAT

VCR_CAT

    Video Cassette Kitteh

  • Omnic

  • 2,694 posts
    Last Visit 30 minutes ago
  • Spouse:Pizza

when killing a monster is game in one shot, i'd argue the raw damage combined with things like called by the grave and kaijus make that worth more than enough. jizukiru sacs monsters and can be searched if you drop genius, each pendulum summon brings heavy damage to the board, wavering breaks the scales against magicians, which can help you avoid trouble down the line, machine dupe gives you a free 1000-1500 pints of damage, (if you don't just link summon with them) and combined with other prominent cards, like 03 and 08, can also lead to game ending damage. not to mention you can still drop electrumite in pendulum variants, giving it even more setup tricks outside the norm.

 

 

standard deskbot setups, are my preferred build, and they output disruption and game level damage consistently enough to actually contend with decks like pendulums, dinosaurs, and mekk-invoked. the main decks currently in the meta that i have serious difficulty against are true draco and trickstars. (trickstars because they just throw my hand away, and dropping honest fucks with eveything but the one copy of 09 that i run, who for whatever reason, usually gets hit by reincarnation) keep in mind, that irion draw does not dictate the ED, so naturia beast, saryuja, electrumite, barkion, omega, zeta, ect, are all still available even if you run iron draw. so long as you aren't attempting to go into them the same turn you use it

 

This isn't a thread of Machine Dupe so I'll keep this brief, but the chances of getting a good combo with Dupe in your opening hand are very low. Way too low. It's a bricky card and there are much better cards you could be running.

 

As for this, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It restricts what you can go into Extra-Deck wise in that it takes all multi-step ED monsters off the table (Needlefiber, Summon Sorceress, stuff that really gets things together) and limits you based on materials and what they can do. But the main thing I'm focusing on is that it limits on how MUCH you can go into by a severe degree. Opening Genius/CDI is a very poor opening field that's going to get upturned with a high degree of ease. I have replays, you know, and I can show you combos and opening plays I've pulled off that blow anything Iron Draw can net you well out of the water. It drastically limits your turn ceiling, and that's bad.


PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA PIZZA

 

giphy.gif

 

u8g1mOv.jpg

 

SmUH6Uv.png





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users