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(TCG) May 21st Banlist


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#21
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60 card decks were a solid tier 2 the past format and the tier 1 decks were hit, don't think the Grass hit was necessary either though especially with the advent of Knightmare Gouki/SPYRAL, Altergeists, Brandish, etc. 



#22
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CED probably may be the more potent form of removal now that Links are a thing and destruction profiteering is something present everywhere.

What link monster would be better to remove with compulse than with more accessible removal?

#23
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Devil's advocate here: The Astrograph hit wasn't hard ENOUGH, especially considering Zefras are fit to waltz into the Tier 1 space Zarcgicians once occupied. 

 

I'd argue SPYRAL Quik Fix should have already shown that non-OPT effects on self-summon/replacement cards are begging for abuse. And knowing how the game is like doesn't mean I want it to be MORE LIKE THAT-slower and steadier, please and thank you. 

 

Besides, "function" and "un-interestingly turning into Galaxy Tomahawk/Odd-Eyes Absolute for Link-laddering/stun shenanigans" limits Pendulums design more than expands them. They're as good as you say they are, they shouldn't need Astrograph to do what they do-and if they're that reliant on a Level 7 one-trick Pendulum they were fragile anyways. Dumbspam is something I'd prefer Pendulums move away from, especially given their inherent durability due to their retreat to the Extra Deck upon leaving the field.

Let's get something out of the way at the start.

 

Pendulum is an inherently weak mechanic.

 

It requires far more startup than any other mechanic, is fairly easy to disrupt at almost any stage of said setup, and it doesn't have nearly the bounce back potential that people act like it does. Their "durability" isn't even a good argument, because that's generally used as an offensive option in setting up T1 or breaking boards later, as opposed to being a comeback mechanic. It requires a tone of input to get average or somewhat above average payouts.

 

The game will never be truly slow and steady. TCG is "slow and steady" right now. Your expectations are completely unrealistic, and they reflect neither the direction of the game nor the feelings of the players at large.

 

Astrograph was bad before Links, with even its best deck, Metalfoe, having it be barely more than a tech. It was bad with Links, due to the fact that it still had to be drawn and procced by outside cards.

 

Electrumite made it good. It made it so that you could afford playing it, afford playing Stargazer, and have a little bit more value to make your plays with. It even did so for Chronograph, who is generally worse than Astrograph, in theory.

 

Astrograph is only unfair when it can be grabbed from the deck _and_ the ED by Electrumite. 3-1 ratio engines for SSing a Pendulum, such as 3 Astro 1 Stargazer, are perfectly fair. Being able to SS it and renew advantage with how costly a mechanic Pendulum turned out to be... is fair. What Astrograph does is incredibly fair.

 

I'm not saying that Electrumite needs a ban, either, though that card is ridiculously strong... But Astrograph is a goodstuff card. There is absolutely nothing wrong with goodstuff existing in the game. He doesn't do too much on his own, even in decks that love popping their own cards. He just makes it so that you're more likely to have enough resources to function.

 

Because, let's face it- Pendulums aren't good, right now. Many of them are decent cards, but their prevalence in TCG is due to a slowed gamestate (which is, in turn, due to bad sets being released) + Electrumite, but the decks themselves don't function without advantage generation like Astrograph. Why do you think Darkwurm is such a good card, despite searching cards that are pretty so-so in their own rights?

 

It's also not a 1-trick pony. You (and many others) choose to use tunnel vision to only see 'optimal' plays, ignoring how often Electrumite didn't even go into Astrograph, in favor of stronger setup and combos. Astro is consistency and support, it's not some core degeneracy that breaks everything.

 

Your post is so full of "haha fuck the meta AMIRITE" that it's plain unpleasant.

 

You're also... completely wrong about Starving Venom. It has nothing to do with copying Electrum, considering you can always run more Electrum (not to say copying electrum with it is bad), it has to do with the fact that Nightingale exists and self-copying is ridiculously strong, especially considering cards in the future like Odd-Eyes Revolution Dragon. That type of effect is fucking ridiculous, and SKDSV was one of the strongest options that pendulum decks had, completely overshadowing cards like SKDDR.


 

You are an insane person and very creative.

 


#24
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What link monster would be better to remove with compulse than with more accessible removal?

 

I more meant that it would be more useful in comparison to the other banlist-freed Traps we've gotten recently, like Bottomless, Torrential, and Ring of Destruction. 

 

Should have clarified that, yes. 

 

But in terms of removal, most of that is negation/destruction for the higher-builds, or removal so fast that this will be sniped unless you're going first. (True Dracos can still accomplish that, as can Altergeists.)


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#25
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Why isn't knuckle back if MP is gone?

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#26
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Why isn't knuckle back if MP is gone?

try reading the list again, maybe?

 

because dino is back.


 

You are an insane person and very creative.

 


#27
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try reading the list again, maybe?

because dino is back.

Iris and Skull then

Or Dandy now that cluster is gone

TCG always does this shit of making awful bans to protect secret rares then taking forever to reverse them.

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#28
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Banned:

Master Peace

Astrograph Sorceror

Phoenixian Cluster Amaryllis

Supreme King Dragon Starving Venom

Ancient Fairy Dragon

RUM Argent Chaos Force

That Grass

 

Limited:

Dinomight Knight

Gem-Knight Master Diamond

Chain Strike

 

Semi:

Apoqliphort Towers

Ring of Destruction

 

Unlimited:

Atlantean Dragoons

Ignis Heat

Grandsoil

Mathmetician

Grand Mole

Compulsory Evacuation Device  

 

 

Not too bad, tbh.  Slowed Pendulums and RIP a few FTKs.  RIP pure Draco decks.  RIP 60-card decks.  

 

Chain Strike Limit confused me, as it really hasn't been doing much. 

 

Compulsory to 3 has been a while in coming.  But why leave Book of Moon at 1?  Grand Mole to 3 might be interesting in some decks.  


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#29
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It requires far more startup than any other mechanic, is fairly easy to disrupt at almost any stage of said setup, and it doesn't have nearly the bounce back potential that people act like it does. Their "durability" isn't even a good argument, because that's generally used as an offensive option in setting up T1 or breaking boards later, as opposed to being a comeback mechanic. It requires a tone of input to get average or somewhat above average payouts.

 

It is not even the second most cost-intensive Monster card-type in the game. Xyzs fell off the wagon except as ladder/defensive Tech since MR4 and even a bit before and...goodness, at least you can count the number of meta-compatible Pendulum Decks on more than TWO FINGERS. One of which being through a hand-raping strategy that took a full half hour to do even if you knew the steps, and the other needing to search everything with everything else to make play, and got itself and two generic Xyzes that offered aid and comfort to it banhammered into a fine paste for its troubles.

 

(Deservedly so in the latter case, I mean, 32 out of 36 tournament Decks is overkill on steroids, but yeah, Pendulums are not some amateur-hour Deck, its got multiple ways to recompense its cost that other Monster Card Types do not. For good reason, mind.)

 

I'm not even mad at all Pendulum Decks-two of my top 5 favorite Decks are Pendulums, and Zefras do a lot of what Pendulum Magicians did but on a far more exclusive scale-which is why its one of my favorites. Zarcgicians, however? They can burn.

 

 

 

The game will never be truly slow and steady. TCG is "slow and steady" right now. Your expectations are completely unrealistic, and they reflect neither the direction of the game nor the feelings of the players at large.

 

We're not in a hospital but the "ERs" are what's important here. Slower and Steadier.  A step in the right direction is welcome, especially in a format currently/about to be graced with Brandish and Knightmare Goukis, and especially in regards to stuff that should have been hit even before this instead of this slow-footing claptrap Konami's paced us through. This format was okay-even great-in terms of diversity, but its one the players have already worked the viable routes through. Time for something new to break through this homeostasis, s'all. 

 

Also, if you're calling my expectations 'unrealistic' while also thinking I'm the only player having issues with the speed of the current meta....

 

{further statement omitted for reasons of exceeding the post's character limit}

 

 

Let's get something out of the way at the start.

 

Pendulum is an inherently weak mechanic.

 

Electrumite made it good. It made it so that you could afford playing it, afford playing Stargazer, and have a little bit more value to make your plays with. It even did so for Chronograph, who is generally worse than Astrograph, in theory.

 

Astrograph is only unfair when it can be grabbed from the deck _and_ the ED by Electrumite. 3-1 ratio engines for SSing a Pendulum, such as 3 Astro 1 Stargazer, are perfectly fair. Being able to SS it and renew advantage with how costly a mechanic Pendulum turned out to be... is fair. What Astrograph does is incredibly fair.

 

I'm not saying that Electrumite needs a ban, either, though that card is ridiculously strong... But Astrograph is a goodstuff card. There is absolutely nothing wrong with goodstuff existing in the game. He doesn't do too much on his own, even in decks that love popping their own cards. He just makes it so that you're more likely to have enough resources to function.

 

I've...never said Electrumite should be hit. In fact, I agree with you in Electrumite helping to mitigate the Pendulum player's limitations in Master Rule 4, in an ingenious (read. not Ash-Blossom-vulnerable) way. That's staying. 

 

I'm saying that specifically, this one Pendulum Deck deserved no quarter, especially considering the countless number of cards its abused and is still abusing. I already talked at length about the Argent Chaos Force ban being in part because of YCM Bochum and PendMagicians funneling it into the GY with Beatrice and retrieving it from there with their next Xyz Summon, usually Tomahawk/Absolute. Then, ta da, a reliable Utopic ZeXal that says 'don't even ATTEMPT to break my board' to 2nd turn players. 

 

Really, this is my fault for not clarifying, but I say this out of knowledge of the alternatives of banning should Astrograph have stayed (Tomahawk, Absolute, maybe even Electrumite.) Between them and Astrograph, I'm okay with Astrograph taking the hit, especially so for PendMagicians possibly ceding ground to other Decks that haven't...okay, I'll handle this in the final part. I don't want to lose anybody in this elaboration of my points.

 

 

 

I'm not saying that Electrumite needs a ban, either, though that card is ridiculously strong... But Astrograph is a goodstuff card. There is absolutely nothing wrong with goodstuff existing in the game. He doesn't do too much on his own, even in decks that love popping their own cards. He just makes it so that you're more likely to have enough resources to function.

 

Because, let's face it- Pendulums aren't good, right now. Many of them are decent cards, but their prevalence in TCG is due to a slowed gamestate (which is, in turn, due to bad sets being released) + Electrumite, but the decks themselves don't function without advantage generation like Astrograph. Why do you think Darkwurm is such a good card, despite searching cards that are pretty so-so in their own rights?

 

It's also not a 1-trick pony. You (and many others) choose to use tunnel vision to only see 'optimal' plays, ignoring how often Electrumite didn't even go into Astrograph, in favor of stronger setup and combos. Astro is consistency and support, it's not some core degeneracy that breaks everything.

 

Your post is so full of "haha HELL YEAH the meta AMIRITE" that it's plain unpleasant.

 

Pardon my French here, but exactly how much f***ing pleasantry should I spare for a Deck that's gotten an emergency banlist forced on it because of its overuse two years ago and is currently where it is because of its rebirth from ANOTHER emergency banlist last year?!

 

P.S. I'd really rather not have my intentions questioned by a guy who came swinging out of the gate to  by saying everyone who thought the Astrograph ban was okay "doesn't know this game at all." To paraphrase P O L A R I S further, I'm more inclined to believe they know more of the game and where its heading, then they'd care to.

 

Tl;dr: My regards for Pendulum Magicians, and ONLY them, is at rock-bottom, Electrumite is fine as primary ultiity tech for Pendulums, it and Astrograph on the same plane is busted beyond compare, SK-Starving Venom and Tyrant Neptune are horrid cards for appropriating effects from the GY, even excluding Nightingale, and the impact of having self-Summon/hand replacement monsters is a stupid fad that should have seen the door before Firewall and Quik-Fix became things.


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#30
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Chain Strike Limit confused me, as it really hasn't been doing much. 

Yeah, I was thinking the same as I haven't seen it much lately.


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#31
Himiko Yumeno

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It is not even the second most cost-intensive Monster card-type in the game. Xyzs fell off the wagon except as ladder/defensive Tech since MR4 and even a bit before and...goodness, at least you can count the number of meta-compatible Pendulum Decks on more than TWO FINGERS. One of which being through a hand-raping strategy that took a full half hour to do even if you knew the steps, and the other needing to search everything with everything else to make play, and got itself and two generic Xyzes that offered aid and comfort to it banhammered into a fine paste for its troubles.
 
(Deservedly so in the latter case, I mean, 32 out of 36 tournament Decks is overkill on steroids, but yeah, Pendulums are not some amateur-hour Deck, its got multiple ways to recompense its cost that other Monster Card Types do not. For good reason, mind.)
 
I'm not even mad at all Pendulum Decks-two of my top 5 favorite Decks are Pendulums, and Zefras do a lot of what Pendulum Magicians did but on a far more exclusive scale-which is why its one of my favorites.

Pendulums have not had that many decks. Pals (draco or clown), Metalfoe, Magicians, and Zefra are all of them.
 
You're also desperately twisting what I said. I said that they require heavy input. You have to -2 yourself in order to even get started, and that's in hopes of using a later Soul Charge-esque effect in order to give you the resources needed to play. And, unlike the ED methods, they require you to maintain -2ing yourself or protecting your scales in order to keep going, and they are far from generic like Xyz were. The design shifted in favor of mitigating losses, but they still exist and often require you doing specific things to make up for them
 
"I like Zefra because it's like magician but it's not popular"
???? 
 

We're not in a hospital but the "ERs" are what's important here. Slower and Steadier.  A step in the right direction is welcome, especially in a format currently/about to be graced with Brandish and Knightmare Goukis, and especially in regards to stuff that should have been hit even before this instead of this slow-footing claptrap Konami's paced us through. This format was okay-even great-in terms of diversity, but its one the players have already worked the viable routes through. Time for something new to break through this homeostasis, s'all. 
 
Also, if you're calling my expectations 'unrealistic' while also thinking I'm the only player having issues with the speed of the current meta....
 
{further statement omitted for reasons of exceeding the post's character limit}

I didn't say you were the only one. You really need to get better at reading comprehension. I said that your opinion is not the majority, and this entire segment is... just that. This isn't a list that slows the game down, this is a cleanup list before they dump speed on you. Konami doesn't care about "game health", outside of the amount of FTKs that pop up now.
 

I've...never said Electrumite should be hit. In fact, I agree with you in Electrumite helping to mitigate the Pendulum player's limitations in Master Rule 4, in an ingenious (read. not Ash-Blossom-vulnerable) way. That's staying. 
 
I'm saying that specifically, this one Pendulum Deck deserved no quarter, especially considering the countless number of cards its abused and is still abusing. I already talked at length about the Argent Chaos Force ban being in part because of YCM Bochum and PendMagicians funneling it into the GY with Beatrice and retrieving it from there with their next Xyz Summon, usually Tomahawk/Absolute. Then, ta da, a reliable Utopic ZeXal that says 'don't even ATTEMPT to break my board' to 2nd turn players. 
 
Really, this is my fault for not clarifying, but I say this out of knowledge of the alternatives of banning should Astrograph have stayed (Tomahawk, Absolute, maybe even Electrumite.) Between them and Astrograph, I'm okay with Astrograph taking the hit, especially so for PendMagicians possibly ceding ground to other Decks that haven't...okay, I'll handle this in the final part. I don't want to lose anybody in this elaboration of my points.

I never said you did??? IDK why you keep misconstruing basic statements. My points about Electrumite were in regards to its power level and Astrograph, and my final point about it was that it was more problematic. It's like you just fill in my posts with what you want them to say.
 
But Astro isn't part of Magicians. He is a generic card. He goes into most pendulum decks now, thanks to Electrumite. You're also making points about first turn boards, buit those sorts of things tend to be less and less prevalent as you get to higher levels of play, so...?
 
Astrograph is a fair card with versatility, which allowed Pendulums to find some desperately needed ground and advantage maintenance. That doesn't mean it was too good, especially compared to the actual cards that enabled all of this.
 

Pardon my French here, but exactly how much f***ing pleasantry should I spare for a Deck that's gotten an emergency banlist forced on it because of its overuse two years ago and is currently where it is because of its rebirth from ANOTHER emergency banlist this year?!
 
PendMagicians have had so much time in the sun I'm surprised it's not charcoal, its ability to access two already-powerful Rank-7s and god-knows-what-else through them with the greatest of ease-especially through a card not even Handtrap McFivehead can stop and one of the other banned cards can work around being Ghost Ogre'd- is something I will not apologize for seeing the back of.

It's the fact that you're just blatantly bashing it for being good. It's not a matter of whether or not the deck is unfair or likable, it's the fact that you're going "meta bad reeeee"
 

Quick-question: Which have you seen more of in the meta- Nightingale or Electrumite? I said Electrumite less as a certain example than one of many-Nightingale is not the only card SK Starving Venom pushed to game-breaking ends, and probably not even the most powerful one in that regard, considering Instant Fusion is needed for that and you can count the number of Spells the average Pendulum Magician Deck runs on two hands.
 
Tl;dr: My regards for Pendulum Magicians, and ONLY them, is rock-bottom right now, Electrumite is fine as the main ultiity tech for Pendulums, it and Astrograph on the same plane is busted beyond compare, and SK-Starving Venom is banned for far more reasons than a Level 1 Fusion. 
 
P.S. I'd really rather not my intentions questioned by a guy who came swinging out of the gate to  by saying everyone who thought the Astrograph ban was okay "doesn't know this game at all." To paraphrase P O L A R I S further, I'm more inclined to believe they know more of the game and where its heading, then they'd care to-and the impact of having self-Summon-to-replace monsters is a stupid fad that should have seen the door the second SPYRAL Quik-Fix broke it again to the point of needing an emergency banlist-which, again, did more to help Pendulums in a balanced way than Astrograph could dream of.

But when they're hitting FTKs, they don't care about immediate meta relevance. Nightingale is far from the only reason, and I mentioned other reasons. I simply pointed out how Electrumite isn't the reason. Again, you keep reading what you want to read. =T

 

I mean, considering your arguments don't even take mine into account the majority of this response, think what you want. You keep comparing Astrograph to Quik-Fix (which doesn't even work, considering Quik-Fix is a play maker and Astrograph is a combo piece), but you ignored every counterpoint I had in an attempt to try and paint me as... I dunno, an idiot, a hypocrite, what? You offered little-to-no actual arguments and used strawman and moral highground to make yourself sound superior.


 

You are an insane person and very creative.

 


#32
Black D'Sceptyr

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Alright, shouldn't leave on the sour note I had before.

 

At the very least, let me be clearer now: 

 

Hoping for the format to go slower, I think this banlist is a step in the right direction-guess I'm mostly moping over the fact that'll likely be made moot with ABCs, Gouki Knightmares, and possibly Brandish. 

 

Astrograph, in my opinion, is a good hit, and not only because of the alternatives that'd need to be hit in its stead. 

 

With an OPT, I think it might be able to come back. 

 

And I mean you no ill will, Black. S'just....I read too much into the first comment of yours. I shouldn't have done all that, and it is my duty to make sure I'm clear, something that isn't always easy with my chestbumping. I'm sorry. 

 

Guess we've gotta see what crops up next to see if Pendulums get up again with a different Deck. 

 

And I more meant that Zefras, while doing a lot of the Pend-to-Search-to-Stun that Zarcgicians does, does so in a bit more of a tolerable fashion, given it archetype-locks itself and is more focused toward a defensive style. Small differences, but they matter. And I'd love to see it climb a bit, though it may be harder without Astrograph.

 

Think that's it. Peace.


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#33
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Limit Astro and unless you can copy electrumite multiple times, it is OPt

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#34
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The only thing that matters is Neo-Spacian Grand Mole at 3. I've waited a loooooong time for this.


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#35
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Damn, now I have to go back to 40 cards. Oh well. The card shouldn't have been made in the first place.

 

At least I'll probably see less True Draco players out there.


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#36
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Not gonna lie, I was kind of expecting Dinosaurs to take a hit.
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#37
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#38
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Hoping for the format to go slower, I think this banlist is a step in the right direction-guess I'm mostly moping over the fact that'll likely be made moot with ABCs, Gouki Knightmares, and possibly Brandish. 

 

Brandish is a very control-based deck, Altergeists too. It should be a relatively slow format. Hand traps in particular will be back in full force after a period of Magicians and True Dracos that barely used them. 



#39
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Damn, now I have to go back to 40 cards. Oh well. The card shouldn't have been made in the first place.

 

somewhat debatable. while nowhere near the extent of grass, cards like monster gate, reasoning, and fiend comedian, among other cards, can all work as viable replacements for grass, though cutting the related decks down to 50 would be advisable, 50-60 card decks still have options (especially infenoids, who can swap the left arms and grasses for more support cards)

 

damn, first my tyrant neptune, now my venom dragon. i didn't even use them in degenerate decks, (skull servants and odd-eyes respectively) and they're getting stomped out one after another. please, meta platers, stop abusing the things i love.


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#40
Yukine_Harnuo

Yukine_Harnuo

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    Last Visit May 29 2018 09:32 AM
this banlist I think barely hit a dent in this format like seriously..




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