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Three California Initiative Makes November Ballot


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#1
Nathanael D. Striker

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http://www.latimes.c...0612-story.html

For those unaware of what this entails, it would attempt to invoke Article IV, Section 3 of the Constitution so that California could be split into three states of roughly equal population. Yes, this is from the same guy who tried doing six Californias.

Honestly, I'll be paying closer attention to this now that it has made the ballot, especially due to the political ramifications of its passage. Anyway, discuss.

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#2
Phantom Roxas

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A bit surprised this made it, though I've been dreading this lately. I'm a bit dubious of the chances of this passing, mostly because it's blatantly an attempt to try and create more red districts. It's effectively gerrymandering, so I don't see a blue state like California supporting this.


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#3
Darkrai

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A bit surprised this made it, though I've been dreading this lately. I'm a bit dubious of the chances of this passing, mostly because it's blatantly an attempt to try and create more red districts. It's effectively gerrymandering, so I don't see a blue state like California supporting this.

This actually isn't true, all three districts voted for Hillary & Obama

 

It would turn 2 Blue Senators into atleast 4, likely 6

 

It's honestly better for you 


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#4
vla1ne

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while it's not surprising to hear california really doesn't get along with california, how far this goes will be determined solely by who can be bothered to vote on it.

 

as for gerrymandering, it's not quite the same. there's been a lot of news over the past ew years about how a lot of californians aren't happy with the laws passed by the state recently, and this may well be an effort to break off from that yoke as cleanly as possible. it might shake up the ballots a bit, but gerrymandering (at least purely for more red/blue voters), from what i've seen and heard from california, isn't the motive behind it. it seems to be more about avoiding the laws that have been passed in california as of late, that none but a small majority of people (those people "coincidentally" being in the most blue section of winter's above map) supported.


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#5
Phantom Roxas

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while it's not surprising to hear california really doesn't get along with california, how far this goes will be determined solely by who can be bothered to vote on it.
 
as for gerrymandering, it's not quite the same. there's been a lot of news over the past ew years about how a lot of californians aren't happy with the laws passed by the state recently, and this may well be an effort to break off from that yoke as cleanly as possible. it might shake up the ballots a bit, but gerrymandering (at least purely for more red/blue voters), from what i've seen and heard from california, isn't the motive behind it. it seems to be more about avoiding the laws that have been passed in california as of late, that none but a small majority of people (those people "coincidentally" being in the most blue section of winter's above map) supported.

 
Between this and Paul Preston's "New California", both of these initiatives are being pushed by conservatives. They bemoan a supposed "mono-party" system, and referring to "a lot of Californians" is a non-specific group that by no means elaborates on why those residents would be unhappy with the laws, and by extension, why that would motivate them to break off from the rest of the state.
 
I describe it as gerrymandering because, given how the Republicans who have filed these petitions dislike the Democratic majority, this seems like an attempt to gain more seats. Splitting the state in three would not mean they escape those laws, because while one of the proposed states is called "California", it does not mean that the hypothetical Northern California and Southern California will suddenly be freed from those laws, and that they only affect 
 
Here is the initiative measure's full text. https://www.oag.ca.g...ifornias)_1.pdf
 
Within it you will not see what you claim to be any claim to avoid the laws. While Tim Draper does not also define his intentions as gerrymander, I frankly don't believe he would, though he does say the following:

 

 

As a consequence of these and other socio-economic factors, political representation of California's diverse population and economies has rendered the state nearly ungovernable. Additionally, vast parts of California are poorly served by a representative government dominated by a large number of elected representatives from a small part of our state, both geographically and economically.

 

Taking his word at face value, his main concern seems to be addressing a perceived lack of proper political representation. In other words, it's not about the laws in and of themselves, but about the lawmakers. While the proposed states lean Democrat, they're more likely to become swing states, or at least make the states slightly less "safe" for Democrat seats. It's a highly risky gamble that could backfire horribly on Tim Draper, but it effectively gives Republicans more opportunities to take seats in California.

 

Going with your point about that that small majority of people "coincidentally" being the most blue section, that's exactly why I'm saying this is gerrymandering. It has the smallest population of the three, but the largest gap between R and D voters. It's portioning the Democratic state into the smallest region. Even if it's not that much smaller than the other two, it's still a rather suspect choice. It's also contained with the region of California that Paul Preston wants to portion off while claiming that the rest is "New California".

 

"Gerrymandering" may not be the proper word that exactly describes it. But it certainly looks like that's what Draper is trying to do.


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#6
vla1ne

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californians wanting to split apart is not anything new at least, i've been hearing about it since late 2016, but there's quite a few reasons californians would want to break apart, for one, the majority of the people in charge there are democrats, and the ability to actually gain seats as a republican is next to null due to the population difference between the conservative countryside, and the liberal cities. it's been an issue that republican californians have had for a while, but was considered tolerable because they at least were passing laws that were within the spirit of the constitution, and were arguably with the public's best interests in mind. that is no longer the case.

 

 

among the more recent laws to be passed in california, we have two or three that relate to either heavy restrictions on the 2nd amendment, or even stricter regulations on ammo capacity, not doing the gun argument here, i'll make a thread if you want, but needless to say, conservatives, and even a few liberals, are against both of those laws. then we have the law regulating cow flatulence (pretty sure it's been struck down since, but i haven't actually heard anything) this, of course, upsetting the countryside farmers who happen to already have enough trouble raising cows (would you like to remain in a state that's regulating the amount of farts your cows can make?). and next up we've got barring law enforcement from working with border patrol, which as you might have guessed, is another extremely unpalatable law for anybody on the right, or anybody who doesn't like illegal immigration. speaking of which, california is incredibly lax on illegal immigration, something that i'm sure many liberals agree with, but simply does not sit well with most, if anybody, on the conservative side. then there's the continuous push towards socialism, which has done pretty much nothing for the country, and is doing even less for the people. on top of that, you have the fact that it's legal to knowingly pass on STI's, with no consequence whatsover, to people who might not even be able to find out properly whether they have them or not, because the laws of said state just so happen to be helping block the expansion of the valuable practitioner role, which plays yet another part in the steady decline of california's health and economy. i can keep going on that train of thought, but it's late and i'm tired.

 

call it whatever you like, but when the state's going broke at an astounding speed, illegal immigrants are, many times, draining the free resources of the state without putting anything back by way of either taxes, or in many cases work, the drug problem runs rampant due to unchecked borders, which remain unchecked because controlling immigration into the state is being hindered by the democrtats in power, the and the amount of hindering laws and binding restrictions grows by the year, and a complete overhaul of the rulers in said state would be neccecary to reverse the current path (not to mention the continuing divide between blue and red ideologies within that very state), would you not argue that a clean break is the best option? just about everything that blue california does, is reprehensible from a red standpoint, and vice-versa. breaking it off mitigates conflict, and holding it to a vote, gives everybody a fair say in it (not voting is in and of itself admission that you are fine with whatever outcome occurs imo). that's all i have to say on it for now though.


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#7
Draconus297

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Funny thing is, at least in the places I've been around the state (which mostly fall into "California" and "Southern California"), most people I've talked to think that this is a terrible, pointless bill.

I'll be perfectly honest, though: Even though I think it's stupid, and most of the people I've talked to think it's stupid . . . there's no telling if it'll go through or not. One of the commercials advocating the split is trying to say that there isn't enough money being distributed to schools, but that isn't a problem of just whoever's in office- a lot of local officials just think they can pocket the cash that's supposed to go to the school system, which leads to nonsense like my local school district going through four different primary administrators during my childhood, and my having to attend every one of those protests. The money going to schools from the state government has increased, even in the more rundown urban districts, but the actual amounts reaching the schools are decreasing due to sheer greed among the people distributing said cash. The split won't do anything to fix that, and will only create more expensive bureaucracy that will take more money away from things like the emergency services we just reappropriated money towards.

I'm not going to say that people will be smart enough to vote against something that won't accomplish anything positive- I've been disappointed by human stupidity enough times- but I hope that this gets shot down fast.
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#8
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No sane republican would vote for this bill. Maybe. JUST MAYBE. If they gave Fresno to Norcal, then SOCAL would be a Red state, but even then you're making 4 new Dem senators and maybe 2 new GOP ones


 
Between this and Paul Preston's "New California", both of these initiatives are being pushed by conservatives. They bemoan a supposed "mono-party" system, and referring to "a lot of Californians" is a non-specific group that by no means elaborates on why those residents would be unhappy with the laws, and by extension, why that would motivate them to break off from the rest of the state.
 
I describe it as gerrymandering because, given how the Republicans who have filed these petitions dislike the Democratic majority, this seems like an attempt to gain more seats. Splitting the state in three would not mean they escape those laws, because while one of the proposed states is called "California", it does not mean that the hypothetical Northern California and Southern California will suddenly be freed from those laws, and that they only affect 
 
Here is the initiative measure's full text. https://www.oag.ca.g...ifornias)_1.pdf
 
Within it you will not see what you claim to be any claim to avoid the laws. While Tim Draper does not also define his intentions as gerrymander, I frankly don't believe he would, though he does say the following:

 

 

 

Taking his word at face value, his main concern seems to be addressing a perceived lack of proper political representation. In other words, it's not about the laws in and of themselves, but about the lawmakers. While the proposed states lean Democrat, they're more likely to become swing states, or at least make the states slightly less "safe" for Democrat seats. It's a highly risky gamble that could backfire horribly on Tim Draper, but it effectively gives Republicans more opportunities to take seats in California.

 

Going with your point about that that small majority of people "coincidentally" being the most blue section, that's exactly why I'm saying this is gerrymandering. It has the smallest population of the three, but the largest gap between R and D voters. It's portioning the Democratic state into the smallest region. Even if it's not that much smaller than the other two, it's still a rather suspect choice. It's also contained with the region of California that Paul Preston wants to portion off while claiming that the rest is "New California".

 

"Gerrymandering" may not be the proper word that exactly describes it. But it certainly looks like that's what Draper is trying to do.

Roxas are you fucking blind. You're creating 2 states that are over D+20

 

You know what else is D+20? Nothing. Vermont the most liberal state in the nation is only D+15

 

https://en.wikipedia...an_Voting_Index

 

Your inability to do basic math is stunning. But please don't let me stop you from a self-own


Swings states like Virginia (the most blue swing state) is D+0.5 the most Conservative ones are like R+3

 

Socal would only be a swing state if you count Oregon as a swing state too


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#9
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Roxas are you fucking blind. 

 

Your inability to do basic math is stunning. But please don't let me stop you from a self-own

 

This is why you get warned so much.  You have no self-control.  It's like monitoring an actual toddler.  Literally, none of this was necessary.  I don't understand how you get punished so much, bitch about it, and then turn right back around and do the same thing.  I don't understand it at all. 

 

You could've left all of this out and still made a great point.  But once again, you've proven you can't control yourself.  It's astounding how many times we have to go through this.  And now, once more, I'm going to have to take the discussion up about how to deal with Winter in a situation that could've been avoided if he had any sense of managing his own conduct.

 

No, it's not ban worthy.  But holy shit it's really fucking stupid.


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#10
Darkrai

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This is why you get warned so much. You have no self-control. It's like monitoring an actual toddler. Literally, none of this was necessary. I don't understand how you get punished so much, bitch about it, and then turn right back around and do the same thing. I don't understand it at all.

You could've left all of this out and still made a great point. But once again, you've proven you can't control yourself. It's astounding how many times we have to go through this. And now, once more, I'm going to have to take the discussion up about how to deal with Winter in a situation that could've been avoided if he had any sense of managing his own conduct.

No, it's not ban worthy. But holy shit it's really fucking stupid.

He literally made the same stupid comment about it creating multiple red states. I cited stats to the contrary. He Ignores and repeates false talking points

There are only three options, he is being intellectually dishonest, he can't see the post, or he's too dumb to interpret the post.

Maybe the reason this sub has just died recently with people like brightflame and halu vanishing altogether is due to you guys tripping over each other to SJW this place up. If Roxas or anyone can't understand a D+20 state isn't a swing state then it's their problem

This is like a kid saying 1+1=3, you correct them, and they start saying 1+1 =3 again

"Discuss" it all you want. The matter is already settled becuase the mod team loves to side with the thinskinned side, especially when I'm the defendent.

Like remeber that time when I get warned for calling Enguin a Nazi but it's all fine for you to gloat about punching Nazis and for half this forum to call me a Nazi. I bitch you guys pull double and triple standards out of your fucking asses to pander to the feels

Do w/e you guys want, an impressive effort has already been done to just eradicate this section's activity. If Roxas wants to vote agaisnt a prop that would net 2-4 New Democrat senators it's on him.

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#11
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He literally made the same stupid comment about it creating multiple red states. I cited stats to the contrary. He Ignores and repeates false talking points

There are only three options, he is being intellectually dishonest, he can't see the post, or he's too dumb to interpret the post.

Maybe the reason this sub has just died recently with people like brightflame and halu vanishing altogether is due to you guys tripping over each other to SJW this place up. If Roxas or anyone can't understand a D+20 state isn't a swing state then it's their problem

This is like a kid saying 1+1=3, you correct them, and they start saying 1+1 =3 again

"Discuss" it all you want. The matter is already settled becuase the mod team loves to side with the thinskinned side, especially when I'm the defendent.

Like remeber that time when I get warned for calling Enguin a Nazi but it's all fine for you to gloat about punching Nazis and for half this forum to call me a Nazi. I bitch you guys pull double and triple standards out of your fucking asses to pander to the feels

Do w/e you guys want, an impressive effort has already been done to just eradicate this sections activity

 

The fact that you couldn't explain any of that without the littlest bit of restraint or that you somehow think this type of reinforcement is most effective on children is part of the problem.  You can't admit fault, you whine when you get in trouble, and then you turn into a victim.

 

This is your own fault.  I'm always defending you.  And frankly, I'm tired of it.  Thin skin, no skin, tough skinned, I don't care.  It's as simple as don't do it.  And if you can't not do it (i.e., follow the rules), then you'll be punished.  I don't care how SJW it is.  I don't care if the section dies because of it.  You're not special.  You, and everyone else who is guilty of this will be punished accordingly.


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#12
Darkrai

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I suppose you think the proper course of action is to just keep citing my post over and over

Ofc it's my fault. Roxas was being boneheaded willfully or not. Also calling someone blind for literally not reading a post is barely ad hom if that's what I'm guilty of

You've warned me like once in the last month under the typical kangaroo court secret modforum jury. I used to get warned daily back in Night's day. So it's not like things haven't changed

Stopping with blind was restraint. You guys do have double standards and nebulous rules designed to create crimes for your desired punishment. That's doesn't make me any more of a victim than anyone else who gets on the wrong side of that. I stand by my post. And intentionally wrote it.

Like Holy shit

You're acting like I called his mother a whore and asked for him to be shot. I literally just sarcastically asked if he was blind since he blatantly ignored a post in response to his false assertions

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#13
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I suppose you think the proper course of action is to just keep citing my post over and over

Ofc it's my fault. Roxas was being boneheaded willfully or not. Also calling someone blind for literally not reading a post is barely ad hom if that's what I'm guilty of

You've warned me like once in the last month under the typical kangaroo court secret modforum jury. I used to get warned daily back in Night's day. So it's not like things haven't changed

Stopping with blind was restraint. You guys do have double standards and nebulous rules designed to create crimes for your desired punishment. That's doesn't make me any more of a victim than anyone else who gets on the wrong side of that. I stand by my post. And intentionally wrote it.

Like Holy shit

You're acting like I called his mother a whore and asked for him to be shot. I literally just sarcastically asked if he was blind since he blatantly ignored a post in response to his false assertions

 

You really don't get it.


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#14
Darkrai

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Anyway

This proposal creates 2 new Vermont level liberal states and something in range of New Mexico

SoCal has historically been close and maybe 2016 was an aberation, but as demographics shift as the GOP gains low education folks and bleeds rich whites it's gonna get bluer.

The proposed map is a godsend for Dems and I can't believe they're being dumb enough to try to sink it

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#15
Phantom Roxas

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californians wanting to split apart is not anything new at least, i've been hearing about it since late 2016, but there's quite a few reasons californians would want to break apart, for one, the majority of the people in charge there are democrats, and the ability to actually gain seats as a republican is next to null due to the population difference between the conservative countryside, and the liberal cities. it's been an issue that republican californians have had for a while, but was considered tolerable because they at least were passing laws that were within the spirit of the constitution, and were arguably with the public's best interests in mind. that is no longer the case.

 

 

among the more recent laws to be passed in california, we have two or three that relate to either heavy restrictions on the 2nd amendment, or even stricter regulations on ammo capacity, not doing the gun argument here, i'll make a thread if you want, but needless to say, conservatives, and even a few liberals, are against both of those laws. then we have the law regulating cow flatulence (pretty sure it's been struck down since, but i haven't actually heard anything) this, of course, upsetting the countryside farmers who happen to already have enough trouble raising cows (would you like to remain in a state that's regulating the amount of farts your cows can make?). and next up we've got barring law enforcement from working with border patrol, which as you might have guessed, is another extremely unpalatable law for anybody on the right, or anybody who doesn't like illegal immigration. speaking of which, california is incredibly lax on illegal immigration, something that i'm sure many liberals agree with, but simply does not sit well with most, if anybody, on the conservative side. then there's the continuous push towards socialism, which has done pretty much nothing for the country, and is doing even less for the people. on top of that, you have the fact that it's legal to knowingly pass on STI's, with no consequence whatsover, to people who might not even be able to find out properly whether they have them or not, because the laws of said state just so happen to be helping block the expansion of the valuable practitioner role, which plays yet another part in the steady decline of california's health and economy. i can keep going on that train of thought, but it's late and i'm tired.

 

call it whatever you like, but when the state's going broke at an astounding speed, illegal immigrants are, many times, draining the free resources of the state without putting anything back by way of either taxes, or in many cases work, the drug problem runs rampant due to unchecked borders, which remain unchecked because controlling immigration into the state is being hindered by the democrtats in power, the and the amount of hindering laws and binding restrictions grows by the year, and a complete overhaul of the rulers in said state would be neccecary to reverse the current path (not to mention the continuing divide between blue and red ideologies within that very state), would you not argue that a clean break is the best option? just about everything that blue california does, is reprehensible from a red standpoint, and vice-versa. breaking it off mitigates conflict, and holding it to a vote, gives everybody a fair say in it (not voting is in and of itself admission that you are fine with whatever outcome occurs imo). that's all i have to say on it for now though.

 

If you've been hearing about it since late 2016, might I ask which plans you were referring to? As Striker noted, Tim Draper had previously tried to split up California into six states, so while Californians wanting to split up is indeed nothing new (Draper makes the point), more often than not these plans fail. People want a State of Jefferson, and it still hasn't happened yet. I agree that California Republicans would want to break apart because of that Democrat majority; that was the entire point of my previous posts, and it's why I believe they want this; they think it will give them a greater chance at gaining seats.

 

Most of these laws you're citing seem to specifically be angering Republicans/conservatives, which are a minority in this state, so it's hard to believe that it's only a "small majority" supporting laws when it's a minority that's frustrated with gun laws being restricted (Which we actually need, since the common evidence in response to mass shootings suggests that countries with stricter gun laws have significantly fewer mass shootings than we do), and "illegal immigrants" only ever seems to Mexicans, so the racial bias is blatantly apparent that I find it hard to sympathize with the conservatives who would be upset about it. Again, we as a state wanted this; while it may not sit well with conservatives, plenty of people who resent our leniency towards immigration and offering sanctuary states already do not live here to begin with, so they have no real say in whether or not the state should be split.

 

Has California actually been pushing towards socialism? As far as I can tell, that's only ever been a third party interpretation, usually describing "policies in California that I personally don't like" as socialism, and is reducing the ideology to a buzzword that means nothing over than to attach a negative connotation to make California sound more evil than it actually is. Not to mention that quite frankly, the majority of these complaints all stem back to Jerry Brown, whose term is finally coming to end this year anyway, yet he's treated as if he'll somehow still be around for years to come, to the point that Yes California has been trying to designate him as their president. I don't see much merit in basing your entire strategy rejecting one person when the passage of time is more likely to oust him. I know that you and I have talked about STI's before, so I'm not going to repeat that.

 

California has a budget surplus, so your claim that the state is going broke is categorically false, as is your claim that immigrants don't put anything back, as evidenced by them collectively paying $1.53B. So I will argue against a clean break, because if your reasoning for breaking up California is based on completely false claims, then you are offering no persuasive reason to divide the state. Forgive me if I'm not going to sympathize with whatever red California finds reprehensible, and this is not an issue about mitigating conflict, especially when they lack a perspective worth compromising with.


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#16
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Maybe the reason this sub has just died recently with people like brightflame and halu vanishing altogether is due to you guys tripping over each other to SJW this place up. If Roxas or anyone can't understand a D+20 state isn't a swing state then it's their problem

I know how quick you are to place blame on single ideologies you hate, just like most people here, but the problem is far more multifaceted than you seem to believe. YCM is just straight up not conductive towards discussion anymore, and the fault lies with a lot of people, one of which being yourself. Debates is dead because a lot of people have come to realize that there's no such thing as debating on here; just shit-flinging from behind the bannner of whatever ideology the person in question assumes as a crutch to (poorly) mask their own lack of a coherent personal philosophy, political or otherwise. The only people who really engage anymore are those who revel in this kind of discourse, such as you, VCR, and (less as of late, mind, in the sense that he doesn't bother as much) Roxas. It's no wonder that the mod team has no idea how to handle it when it's been shown time and time again that these kinds of conversations are the only ones that last for any amount of time beyond a few posts.

They're trying to enforce order in an environment where nobody desires any. It makes perfect sense that they'd go after the people who don't even fake civility and tact, as boring and "PC" as it might seem at times to do so.

#17
Darkrai

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I know how quick you are to place blame on single ideologies you hate, just like most people here, but the problem is far more multifaceted than you seem to believe. YCM is just straight up not conductive towards discussion anymore, and the fault lies with a lot of people, one of which being yourself. Debates is dead because a lot of people have come to realize that there's no such thing as debating on here; just shit-flinging from behind the bannner of whatever ideology the person in question assumes as a crutch to (poorly) mask their own lack of a coherent personal philosophy, political or otherwise. The only people who really engage anymore are those who revel in this kind of discourse, such as you, VCR, and (less as of late, mind, in the sense that he doesn't bother as much) Roxas. It's no wonder that the mod team has no idea how to handle it when it's been shown time and time again that these kinds of conversations are the only ones that last for any amount of time beyond a few posts.

They're trying to enforce order in an environment where nobody desires any. It makes perfect sense that they'd go after the people who don't even fake civility and tact, as boring and "PC" as it might seem at times to do so.

True, there's not much to debate when someone insists that a creating 2 D+20 states would be helping the GOP. That's a lost cause.

 

Brightflame pretty clearly spelled out why he doesn't want to come back.

 

Barty - 04/04/2018
And no, I won't come back to YCM.
I don't want to spend my time just going 'i have no idea. But niether do you, so please stop being a dick about it'
 
Barty-02/28/2018 I think most causes of 'social justice' people fight for are fucking moronics, the people fighting for them in general seem to just be trying to strip rights from other people
 
And we actually see there here. The SJW types sic the mods on everyone they find problems with
 
You can try to gaslight all you want, but the problem really isn't me or VCR. Hell as much as I hate VCR's views and his passive aggressive retorts, he doesn't become a little bitch when put in an ideological corner. 
 
The mods just go the extra mile to keep these people all cuddled up. The best example is how Dad lost his shit when I called Enguin a nazi for supporting child infanticide, but neither I nor any mod really cares when Roxas or any one of his leftie clones call me a Nazi.
 
I was quite civil in my first post, he ignored it, so you don't have a point there either. There are double standards around here, and the only way debates will work is if it's done the way crab used to do it. Mods butt the fuck out of here. But there are too many fragile souls that need protecting for that glorious form of debates to return

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#18
Dad

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True, there's not much to debate when someone insists that a creating 2 D+20 states would be helping the GOP. That's a lost cause.

 

Brightflame pretty clearly spelled out why he doesn't want to come back.

 

Barty - 04/04/2018
And no, I won't come back to YCM.
I don't want to spend my time just going 'i have no idea. But niether do you, so please stop being a dick about it'
 
Barty-02/28/2018 I think most causes of 'social justice' people fight for are fucking moronics, the people fighting for them in general seem to just be trying to strip rights from other people
 
And we actually see there here. The SJW types sic the mods on everyone they find problems with
 
You can try to gaslight all you want, but the problem really isn't me or VCR. Hell as much as I hate VCR's views and his passive aggressive retorts, he doesn't become a little bitch when put in an ideological corner. 
 
The mods just go the extra mile to keep these people all cuddled up. The best example is how Dad lost his shit when I called Enguin a nazi for supporting child infanticide, but neither I nor any mod really cares when Roxas or any one of his leftie clones call me a Nazi.
 
I was quite civil in my first post, he ignored it, so you don't have a point there either. There are double standards around here, and the only way debates will work is if it's done the way crab used to do it. Mods butt the fuck out of here. But there are too many fragile souls that need protecting for that glorious form of debates to return

 

 

The only person whining is you.  And since you still don't get it, I'm going to move forward.  You can take a leave like Barty did if you want.  But if you have nothing to contribute, stop posting.

 

That's the least you can do.


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#19
Darkrai

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The only person whining is you.  And since you still don't get it, I'm going to move forward.  You can take a leave like Barty did if you want.  But if you have nothing to contribute, stop posting.

 

That's the least you can do.

I think you should have to explain why me calling Roxas blind for ignoring a clear post that disproved his assertions as "lacking any restraint"


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#20
Dad

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I think you should have to explain why me calling Roxas blind for ignoring a clear post that disproved his assertions as "lacking any restraint"

 

You're not paying attention.


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