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U.S. Government Set to Shutdown for Third Time This Year


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#61
Ryusei the Morning Star

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That's exactly my point. If he doesn't need to do it faster, it doesn't sound like there's much of an emergency. This comes down his own personal preference.

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No no, he has to do it faster since it IS an emergency

 

He shouldn't need to do it, but the democrats are willing to let their country be invaded for cynical politics

 

His hands are tied


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#62
Phantom Roxas

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https://www.factchec...rgency-remarks/

https://www.aclu.org...aration-illegal

https://www.nbcnews....-crisis-n971911

 

There is no emergency, certainly not at the border. The Democrats are not at fault here, because Trump has either outright lied about where the most vulnerable parts are (Assuming he even knows what they are; it's entirely possible he's just wrong and doesn't realize that), or has ignored the data that contradicts him. The deals rejecting Trump were bipartisan, then either the Republicans owe just as much blame as the Democrats, or if both parties are rejecting Trump, maybe the issue isn't that both parties are willing to let the country be invaded, but that Trump himself is the problem here. Trump's hands are only tied because the wall was his biggest campaign promise, and he's over halfway through his first (And possibly only) term. This isn't him taking a last resort to prevent an imaginary invasion, this is him panicking to deliver on his campaign promise.

 

Let me put it this way: When your entire campaign hinged on a wall, and people were eager to believe it, it would be completely humiliating to concede that the general consensus from most sources of data prove that the "causes of invasion" come from areas that would not be targeted by the wall. He made his bed, and now he has to lie in it. He also has a history of largely sticking to the same script. Have you ever had a conversation with someone where it felt like it didn't matter what you would say, because the other person seemed to be prefer responding in only one specific way? That's Trump. It doesn't matter what the facts are, he's going to stick to his script.

 

Democrats and Republicans do both care about border security, but Trump seems to believe that his wall is the only way to achieve ideal border security. While the wall and border security are not one and the same, Trump is treating them as though they are. Opposing the wall doesn't mean that either party opposes border security, and it doesn't mean that they're willing to let the country be invaded. They just don't think the wall that Trump staked his entire campaign on is the ideal way of maximizing border security.


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#63
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Democrats don't care about illegal immigration cuz it's more votes for them

 

Most old fashion republicans don't care cuz it's cheap labor

 

Yeah man, I'll take the ACLUs word over what any non partisan can see with his own eyes

 

The GOP folded on every bill cuz 1) they're spineless, and 2) they don't really care about illegal immigration 

 

The democrats all supported a border wall/fence as recent as this decade, but merely oppose it cuz Trump now. 

 

You never really argue in good faith roxas, but this should be mental gymnastics even for you. I also noticed how you tried to spin Trump's words, and when confronted with that you just started talking about something else. Cute


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#64
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Democrats don't care about illegal immigration cuz it's more votes for them
 
Most old fashion republicans don't care cuz it's cheap labor
 
Yeah man, I'll take the ACLUs word over what any non partisan can see with his own eyes
 
The GOP folded on every bill cuz 1) they're spineless, and 2) they don't really care about illegal immigration 
 
The democrats all supported a border wall/fence as recent as this decade, but merely oppose it cuz Trump now. 
 
You never really argue in good faith roxas, but this should be mental gymnastics even for you. I also noticed how you tried to spin Trump's words, and when confronted with that you just started talking about something else. Cute

 
You're really going to accuse me of arguing in bad faith immediately after you dismiss ACLU without any reason?
 
Where did I start talking about something else? I've been consistent in discussing the topic, and provided multiple sources beyond the ACLU to back up my argument.

 

The idea that Democrats only oppose the wall because Trump is the one behind it is something I already talked with vla1ne about here, and I've already argued against that point, with Democrats offering other reasons, such as Trump either not providing a coherent plan, they're supporting the fence that's already in place, or they believe that the amount of asking for is far too excessive. I brought up the quote because he is openly attempting to violate the Revenue Clause of the Constitution because he failed to get the money that he wanted.

 

There are plenty of other reasons for both parties to refuse funding the wall, and it's not as simple as "They just don't like Trump." Consider those other possibilities before you continue passing off shallow attacks and deflection as coherent arguments.


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#65
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We've seen that trump has attempted, multiple times, to get funding for the wall through the proper channels, After 2 shutdowns, and as many months of waiting and compromise attempts, democrats are unwilling to budge for funding. Trump has already placed troops at the border to assist with the problem. He's got reasonable grounds to argue for a national emergency at this point. It is a fact that democrats will fight anything at all that trump does, one look at the state of the union, the shutdown deal, or the supreme court nomination, should tell you everything you need to know about the democrats supporting trump related topics. At this point, a national emergency is required, because a compromise cannot be reached.  Anything short of pretty much not building the wall, and the democrats would veto the hell out of it in house. This is a fact.

 

Using past actions taken as a precedent, trump could be literally be talking about the cure for cancer, and they would not even agree with him there. Thy could be calling the caravans coming over a crisis one day, and the second that trump says "I agree, we need to work on it" they would revoke their statements and fight tooth and nail to deny that anything at all is wrong on the border regarding people trying to break across.


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#66
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Again, both of you are disregarding that Republicans are just as divided over Trump's actions. You cannot keep blaming Democrats forever, and frankly your posts are becoming less about rational arguments, and instead just complaining about Democrats for the sake of it. Trump himself has also completely changed his motto from "Build that wall" to "Finish that wall." The spending bill passed 83-16, and yet Trump is calling a national emergency to ask for money in direct violation of the Constitution.

 

This isn't about Democrats hating what Trump's doing just because Trump's the one doing it. This is because his actions are an actual abuse of power, and they're against that abuse of power. They are opposing him because of what his actions cause, not because Trump is the person behind those actions. I can  say that Republicans will only ever support Trump because it's Trump, but does that sound the least bit logical to you? It's about as logical as what you two are saying. I tend to think that Republicans are sycophants, but if Republicans are divided over Trump declaring a national emergency, at least I can take a step back and recognize that instead of making sweeping generalizations against the party.


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#67
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Again, both of you are disregarding that Republicans are just as divided over Trump's actions. You cannot keep blaming Democrats forever, and frankly your posts are becoming less about rational arguments, and instead just complaining about Democrats for the sake of it. Trump himself has also completely changed his motto from "Build that wall" to "Finish that wall." The spending bill passed 83-16, and yet Trump is calling a national emergency to ask for money in direct violation of the Constitution.

 

This isn't about Democrats hating what Trump's doing just because Trump's the one doing it. This is because his actions are an actual abuse of power, and they're against that abuse of power. They are opposing him because of what his actions cause, not because Trump is the person behind those actions. I can  say that Republicans will only ever support Trump because it's Trump, but does that sound the least bit logical to you? It's about as logical as what you two are saying. I tend to think that Republicans are sycophants, but if Republicans are divided over Trump declaring a national emergency, at least I can take a step back and recognize that instead of making sweeping generalizations against the party.

republicans are willing to budge fr 5 billion though. they aqren't willing to toss in the whole pile of money, but they are indeed willing, for the most part, to budge for 5 billion instead of the full budget. in addition, there isn't as large a republican force against him in congress as there are democrats. there are individuals against him, but it isn't a party wide thing. Yeah, we can talk about the republicans too, i've got my gripes with them, but they aren't the largest thorn, and they are more willing to negotiate than democrats. The spending bill has pretty much nothing for the wall though. we've been over this. 1.3 billion is useless for anything notable. It was more to get the government open than from him being happy with it.

 

Pretty sure no other president has been hated to the level where their opponents refused to stand and clap for anything positive they said unless it was about them. seriously. you can say it's not about trump, but the people against him refused to so much as clap for cancer treatment, holocaust survivors, peace negotiations, and veterans, Tell me what that hatred of a person looks like, if not refusal to acknowledge what they say, no matter how positive? Every president prior for the past 3 administrations has declared national emergency multiple times, and they have all been contested by the opposing party. this Is party politics as usual. and like the past ones, this one will make it through same as always. You yourself, have already admitted that republicans have contested him as well as supported him within this same statement. your statement sounds wrong, because the actions of the people mentioned disprove it. the statement that democrats hate trump, is backed by their own actions towards him. democrats have been wholly against all of his attempts at concessions. republicans have been for and against him at varying intervals. to claim they are on the same level is to ignore every action democrats and republicans have taken since trump made it into office.


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#68
Phantom Roxas

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The issue is that you have offered absolutely no reason for why the Democrats would hate him, other than just saying that they hate him. And I've seen this type of argument before, that someone just hates an individual, but can't offer a reason for it. Is the issue that you cannot understand why Democrats hate Trump, or do you think they have no reason for it?

 

Among the 59 national emergencies, how many of them were declared after the President

 

If oncologists and cancer patients are unhappy with Trump's plans for cancer treatment, then why should I expect Democrats to applaud Trump? He also deserves no credit for peace negotiations when he had threatened to destroy North Korea. He banned Jim Acosta from the White House for asking a question, then used a doctored video from InfoWars to slander him.

 

Trump has tried to circumvent the separation of powers, and has gone out of his way to try and repeal Obamacare. Mitch McConnell was singled out for his hypocrisy in moaning about the opposition to Kavanaugh's nomination, because McConnell personally opposed Merrick Garland's nomination to the Supreme Court for absolutely no other reason than Obama nominated him. Republicans viciously hated Obama, as well as Trump.

 

Trump has also overseen attempts to ban transgender people from the military, and his Muslim ban was nothing short of discrimination. The hatred towards Trump is based entirely on him ruling more from his own irrational hatred than out of anything purely logical. Democrats detest him because he represents a regression in values. At the Munich Security Conference, Pence made a statement expecting an applause, and none of the world leaders present clapped. The United Nations laughed at Trump when he claimed that his administration has accomplish more than any other in history.

 

When the world is hating Trump, they're judging him for his reactions. I'm not saying that this isn't about Trump. You seem to believe that Democrats hate Trump as if his only crime was existing. My issue is that Trump has consistently operated in bad faith as president. The Russian probe against him is being led by Republicans because of the specific circumstances surrounding the 2016 election. All the hate against him is a reaction to what he has said and done.

 

If you truly believe that Trump has done nothing to earn the level of scorn he gets, take a step back and try to assess where he has gone wrong. Thankfully, Trump isn't the only president who's been hated this much. He's hated as much as Nixon was before Nixon resigned. Maybe screaming about a witch hunt in an investigation where several of the suspects have been found guilty could have something to do with that.


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